UNDERSTANDING FREE WILL
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D
Cool post grandpa. My thing with it is I was a rotten sinner when I was saved. Nothing in me could choose God....I simply didn't believe he existed. Although I agree I had potential, I was blind. His work in my life was not my choice, because I chose satan and hell. And I would continue, even now. He is so persistant in my life, it is clear to me who he is and what he is doing. Miracles, all the time. God is clearly not a passive participant in my salvation. He never gives up. I give up all the time. (shrugs) God is so great, so incredible! His work is perfect!
J
My fear is how some Calvinists look at life.
if we all are predestined for Hell or Heaven by God and it has absolutely nothing to do with us, then why pray? Why evangelize? Why do anything really? Why not sin? If you are chosen you are going to he ran anyway. I have had Calvinists ask me some of these very questions.
Why are we told to obey? Why do the apostles warn of false prophets?
At the end of 2 Corinthians, Paul was seriously concerned that the new converts would be deceived by false prophets. Why would he worry if their election was sure? Why are there scriptures that seem to go against once saved always saved which goes against election?
If God predestines everyone then why does it say he desires all men to be saved like in Timothy and 2 Peter that Rehbein quoted?
Yet I also realize God saved me at 6. I was playing and He just came upon me and I was desperately crying telling my mother that I had to be saved. I clearly did not do this. God did it. However I do believe that I am called to obeybHim and follow him with the free will that He has given me.
if we all are predestined for Hell or Heaven by God and it has absolutely nothing to do with us, then why pray? Why evangelize? Why do anything really? Why not sin? If you are chosen you are going to he ran anyway. I have had Calvinists ask me some of these very questions.
Why are we told to obey? Why do the apostles warn of false prophets?
At the end of 2 Corinthians, Paul was seriously concerned that the new converts would be deceived by false prophets. Why would he worry if their election was sure? Why are there scriptures that seem to go against once saved always saved which goes against election?
If God predestines everyone then why does it say he desires all men to be saved like in Timothy and 2 Peter that Rehbein quoted?
Yet I also realize God saved me at 6. I was playing and He just came upon me and I was desperately crying telling my mother that I had to be saved. I clearly did not do this. God did it. However I do believe that I am called to obeybHim and follow him with the free will that He has given me.
D
Concepts of time are a third dimensional reality. God exists outside of time and probably in a dimensional state we can't begin to fathom. I can only relate to what I know as my experience...as to those questions of supposition - I leave his omniscience out of my realm of understanding. For me honoring his sovereignity is important. I actually believe he has set this up in a way that I would react how he knew I would. I am bound to his authority but it isn't authoritarian because he is bringing me to his love. So I can move left or right, he has a perfect way for either. All roads lead to him. Of course, I can go to the bar tonight and test the waters and report back what happens. lol. I get punished. I can tell ya that right now. 
D
Hi my dear friend...hope your day is well! Maybe it's true that we come to Christ in different ways? I pray: to glorify God. I work to avoid sin: to glorify God. I read, study and worship: to glorify God. Because he has shown me his love, I am prostrate before it. I am redeemed in Christ. I will follow the lamb to glorify God!
J
Right. So did God predestined us to do good works as Christians should be doing, or did God predestined every good work we did so we had no other choice but to do it? It's a bit hazy to me.
I think it has always been God's plan that we should do good works, but not that he makes us do every single good work.
there are too many verse, passages, and even whole books of the Bible that command us to do things, to be wary of false teachers, to stay away from sin, to warn others of sin, to preach, to pray, etc. They all give the idea of a choice, or that we are to do something.
I think it has always been God's plan that we should do good works, but not that he makes us do every single good work.
there are too many verse, passages, and even whole books of the Bible that command us to do things, to be wary of false teachers, to stay away from sin, to warn others of sin, to preach, to pray, etc. They all give the idea of a choice, or that we are to do something.
J
Concepts of time are a third dimensional reality. God exists outside of time and probably in a dimensional state we can't begin to fathom. I can only relate to what I know as my experience...as to those questions of supposition - I leave his omniscience out of my realm of understanding. For me honoring his sovereignity is important. I actually believe he has set this up in a way that I would react how he knew I would. I am bound to his authority but it isn't authoritarian because he is bringing me to his love. So I can move left or right, he has a perfect way for either. All roads lead to him. Of course, I can go to the bar tonight and test the waters and report back what happens. lol. I get punished. I can tell ya that right now.
J
Paul and the apostles many times pleaded that people should do righteously and do the things that honor God. This would all be redundant if every good work was Pre-arranged. Clearly God KNOWS what we are going to do, but knowing and choosing for us are completely different.
Rehbein showed the scripture, I believe it was in Deuteronomy or Ezekiel, where God tells the people to do righteously that they might live. He also tells the sinner to turn from His wicked ways and repent. If we truly have no choice in what we do, much of the Bible doesn't make sense.
commands are given with the idea that they can be followed or not. Every writer of the Bible assumes this in how they write.
Rehbein showed the scripture, I believe it was in Deuteronomy or Ezekiel, where God tells the people to do righteously that they might live. He also tells the sinner to turn from His wicked ways and repent. If we truly have no choice in what we do, much of the Bible doesn't make sense.
commands are given with the idea that they can be followed or not. Every writer of the Bible assumes this in how they write.
Neither of.
I mean at least I wouldn’t say it like that.
It is more like God knew and knows what will happen with our life.. It is same with Jesus, you remember when He said to Ananias about Saul (Paul) that … for he (Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake..
Also to Peter …thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it…
God, because his goodness, because He is so good, he prepared for us even those good deeds, which we are just going to do..
I know, it seem unbelievable.. but as Paul said
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom11
But we, of course, have to input ourselves in those good deeds … I think... We have to let Holy Spirit.. we have to let him do the work in us, give Him space and than we will be changed
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Cor 3,18
God ..hm.. He is doing this, because He wants us to be concluded within His grace
Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? Rom 11, 35
It seems to be, as if He wanted us to be His debtors, and I will be and I am His debtor, with pleasure
At least,this is how I see it, I could be wrong
I mean at least I wouldn’t say it like that.
It is more like God knew and knows what will happen with our life.. It is same with Jesus, you remember when He said to Ananias about Saul (Paul) that … for he (Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake..
Also to Peter …thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it…
God, because his goodness, because He is so good, he prepared for us even those good deeds, which we are just going to do..
I know, it seem unbelievable.. but as Paul said
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom11
But we, of course, have to input ourselves in those good deeds … I think... We have to let Holy Spirit.. we have to let him do the work in us, give Him space and than we will be changed
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Cor 3,18
God ..hm.. He is doing this, because He wants us to be concluded within His grace
Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? Rom 11, 35
It seems to be, as if He wanted us to be His debtors, and I will be and I am His debtor, with pleasure
At least,this is how I see it, I could be wrong
Actually...............IF PREDESTINATION as stated by Calvin is TRUTH, then here is a list of things made of no necessity:
1) Jesus Christ, His death, burial and resurrection.
2) The First Covenant/Law
3) The New Covenant/Grace
4) Establishment of the Church as witnessed by Pentecost
5) The Great Commission
6) The Holy Bible
None of these are of any value or necessity IF FROM THE BEGINNING GOD PREDETERMINED WHO WOULD GO TO HEAVEN, AND WHO WOULD GO TO HELL...............
1) Jesus Christ, His death, burial and resurrection.
2) The First Covenant/Law
3) The New Covenant/Grace
4) Establishment of the Church as witnessed by Pentecost
5) The Great Commission
6) The Holy Bible
None of these are of any value or necessity IF FROM THE BEGINNING GOD PREDETERMINED WHO WOULD GO TO HEAVEN, AND WHO WOULD GO TO HELL...............
Lot's dislike this passsage and do everything to explain it away...
Romans 9:18-23 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 9:18-23 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Ok. Here's all this great stuff. You're really gonna love it. All you have to do is choose. But you have no understanding of it until after you have already chosen...
Maybe the one choice people need to learn and the reason they are so stubborn to not learn it is this;
Your will or His Will? Which one is most important and which one Saves??
Our Father, who is in Heaven, Hallowed be your Name.
Your Kingdom come, Your Will be done, On earth as it is in Heaven.
Because really, if you were so good at making right choices why couldn't you just choose to be righteous before Him by the Law?
It actually seems like a pretty easy choice. Mess up your life constantly and consistently, and watch those closest to you mess up their lives constantly and consistently, for about 35 yrs by your own ways and your own understanding. Then just choose to be blessed by God instead, laying down your will for His Perfect Will.
But then after you realize that all of your choices and your own will produced nothing but pain and misery, how are you going to credit the best decision you ever made by deciding to trust the Lord Jesus to your own great choosing abilities??? I couldn't. In order for me to come to Him I had to be perfectly broken in such a way that I knew I couldn't put myself back together. I had to trust Him to do it. And He does exceedingly abundantly more than we can ask or THINK.
Maybe the one choice people need to learn and the reason they are so stubborn to not learn it is this;
Your will or His Will? Which one is most important and which one Saves??
Our Father, who is in Heaven, Hallowed be your Name.
Your Kingdom come, Your Will be done, On earth as it is in Heaven.
Because really, if you were so good at making right choices why couldn't you just choose to be righteous before Him by the Law?
It actually seems like a pretty easy choice. Mess up your life constantly and consistently, and watch those closest to you mess up their lives constantly and consistently, for about 35 yrs by your own ways and your own understanding. Then just choose to be blessed by God instead, laying down your will for His Perfect Will.
But then after you realize that all of your choices and your own will produced nothing but pain and misery, how are you going to credit the best decision you ever made by deciding to trust the Lord Jesus to your own great choosing abilities??? I couldn't. In order for me to come to Him I had to be perfectly broken in such a way that I knew I couldn't put myself back together. I had to trust Him to do it. And He does exceedingly abundantly more than we can ask or THINK.