Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
the Bible speaks of two kinds of grace Gods grace that is like this and includes reforming our works
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
Titus 2:11-15 KJV
then there’s another grace mentioned that would be introduced later by dalse teachers
“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”
Jude 1:3-7
when we remove the reformation of our deeds from the equation it’s the wrong grace
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
Titus 2:11-15 KJV
then there’s another grace mentioned that would be introduced later by dalse teachers
“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”
Jude 1:3-7
when we remove the reformation of our deeds from the equation it’s the wrong grace
“his deeds": Christ's deeds.”
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
John 5:28-29 KJV
“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”
Revelation 20:13 KJV
“For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
Romans 14:11-12 KJV
“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 KJV
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV
Your argument is that whether Jesus did good or bad , we all have to answer for it ?
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
John 5:28-29 KJV
“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”
Revelation 20:13 KJV
“For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
Romans 14:11-12 KJV
“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 KJV
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV
Your argument is that whether Jesus did good or bad , we all have to answer for it ?
Huh? No, Jesus only did good, not bad. There is no judgement that will be levied against us. The righteousness of Christ is freely
imputed to His elected/saved and assessed by God as though it was by them.
I don't understand how you could come to that conclusion based on what I posted.
** I edited/corrected my comment
imputed to His elected/saved and assessed by God as though it was by them.
I don't understand how you could come to that conclusion based on what I posted.
** I edited/corrected my comment
“Huh? No, Jesus only did good, not bad. There is no judgement that will be levied against us. “
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
Hebrews 13:8 KJV
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
Hebrews 9:27 KJV
Here’s the thing Roman’s two is based on a teaching by Jesus about not judging other people when we also aren’t perfect . On this
“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.”
Matthew 7:1-2 KJV
what Paul is saying starts here
“Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.”
Romans 2:1 KJV
he’s telling them to stop judging each other because we all have to face Gods judgement when we do we can have lived after this one of the gospels core and repetetive teachings
“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
Luke 6:36-38 KJV
Paul’s point is about that teaching of we go around condemning people when they aren’t perfect or do something we know is wrong , we are only condemning our own self because we also make mistakes at times and need mercy still
We have to face the judgement but we can accept the law of liberty and mercy in victory
“So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
James 2:12-13 KJV
If we are merciful when others do wrong , if we don’t condemn and judge others unworthy of we forgive others we can expect that at judgement day based upon what the lord himself taught bout judgement
We can also reject his word that can save our souls and it won’t help us but will judge us in the end
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:48-50 KJV
The gospel speaks life to those who hear it such as be merciful don’t judge and condemn others when you also aren’t perfect forgive others ect then we can expect assuredly to receive it because it’s actually what Jesus the judge taught us in his everlasting word
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
Hebrews 13:8 KJV
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
Hebrews 9:27 KJV
Here’s the thing Roman’s two is based on a teaching by Jesus about not judging other people when we also aren’t perfect . On this
“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.”
Matthew 7:1-2 KJV
what Paul is saying starts here
“Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.”
Romans 2:1 KJV
he’s telling them to stop judging each other because we all have to face Gods judgement when we do we can have lived after this one of the gospels core and repetetive teachings
“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
Luke 6:36-38 KJV
Paul’s point is about that teaching of we go around condemning people when they aren’t perfect or do something we know is wrong , we are only condemning our own self because we also make mistakes at times and need mercy still
We have to face the judgement but we can accept the law of liberty and mercy in victory
“So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
James 2:12-13 KJV
If we are merciful when others do wrong , if we don’t condemn and judge others unworthy of we forgive others we can expect that at judgement day based upon what the lord himself taught bout judgement
We can also reject his word that can save our souls and it won’t help us but will judge us in the end
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:48-50 KJV
The gospel speaks life to those who hear it such as be merciful don’t judge and condemn others when you also aren’t perfect forgive others ect then we can expect assuredly to receive it because it’s actually what Jesus the judge taught us in his everlasting word
You don't read too swell, do you? To whom do you think the prophets were addressing in the following passages:
Lev 26:30
30 'I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols; for My soul shall abhor you.
NASB
Deut 25:16
16 For the LORD your God detests anyone who does these things, anyone who deals dishonestly.
NIV
Ps 95:10-11
10 "For forty years I loathed that generation,
And said they are a people who err in their heart,
And they do not know My ways.
11 "Therefore I swore in My anger,
Truly they shall not enter into My rest."
NASB
Ps 106:40 Therefore the anger of the Lord was kindled against His people,
And He abhorred His inheritance.
NASB
Prov 6:16-19
6 There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.
NIV
Jer 12:8
8 My inheritance has become to me
like a lion in the forest.
She roars at me;
therefore I hate her.
NIV
Jer 16:5
5 For this is what the LORD says: "Do not enter a house where there is a funeral meal; do not go to mourn or show sympathy, because I have withdrawn my blessing, my love and my pity from this people," declares the LORD
NIV
It seems you have conveniently forgotten that both Israel and Judah were apostate kingdoms that God judged harshly for their impiety and idolatries.
Moreover, your inane reply implies that God is mutable. God thought one way in the OT and in a completly different way in the NT.
Lev 26:30
30 'I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols; for My soul shall abhor you.
NASB
Deut 25:16
16 For the LORD your God detests anyone who does these things, anyone who deals dishonestly.
NIV
Ps 95:10-11
10 "For forty years I loathed that generation,
And said they are a people who err in their heart,
And they do not know My ways.
11 "Therefore I swore in My anger,
Truly they shall not enter into My rest."
NASB
Ps 106:40 Therefore the anger of the Lord was kindled against His people,
And He abhorred His inheritance.
NASB
Prov 6:16-19
6 There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.
NIV
Jer 12:8
8 My inheritance has become to me
like a lion in the forest.
She roars at me;
therefore I hate her.
NIV
Jer 16:5
5 For this is what the LORD says: "Do not enter a house where there is a funeral meal; do not go to mourn or show sympathy, because I have withdrawn my blessing, my love and my pity from this people," declares the LORD
NIV
It seems you have conveniently forgotten that both Israel and Judah were apostate kingdoms that God judged harshly for their impiety and idolatries.
Moreover, your inane reply implies that God is mutable. God thought one way in the OT and in a completly different way in the NT.
My reply affirms that God's love is eternal and universal as revealed in the NT, whereas your post views God as hateful immutably except for a few.
Christians harmonize the NT view with the OT Scripture you cited by understanding that God hates sin but loves sinners, a truth not revealed to OT writers, which set up Christ to be crucified by haters. You DO claim to be a Christian?
Christians harmonize the NT view with the OT Scripture you cited by understanding that God hates sin but loves sinners, a truth not revealed to OT writers, which set up Christ to be crucified by haters. You DO claim to be a Christian?
Yeah...but I'm mature enough to know the difference between a judicial judgment and a judicial indictment -- and mature enough to understand the serious theological and logical implications to Paul's omission (according to you!) of Ps 14:1 in Rom 3. And also mature enough to understand that all unbelievers are atheists in the practical sense since they live their lives as though there is no God. You, on the other hand, cannot grasp any of these biblical concepts.
Christ taught certain laws regarding how we are to conduct ourselves as Christians in this world. However, those are not the laws that levy eternal condemnation. Eternal condemnation is determined based on the following:
[Jhn 3:19-21 KJV]
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Christ is that light. Those not elected/saved, hate the light (Christ), because natural man loves and trusts only in his own deeds for salvation, thus rejecting God's mercy and grace through Christ. Therefore, the sin that brings eternal condemnation, is the hatred of Jesus Christ alone as the Savior.
[Jhn 3:19-21 KJV]
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Christ is that light. Those not elected/saved, hate the light (Christ), because natural man loves and trusts only in his own deeds for salvation, thus rejecting God's mercy and grace through Christ. Therefore, the sin that brings eternal condemnation, is the hatred of Jesus Christ alone as the Savior.