Understanding God’s election
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Hello GWH,
1] God has never intended to save every person ever born. The bible clearly does not teach that.
2] when he says all men, it means not the jew only, it means Kings, those in authority, young ,old, gentiles,all manner of sinners
3] Where does the bible claim God predestines men to hell? God elects a multitude to be saved, the others are "passed" over to remain with their love of sin.
4] Why would you suggest Paul must be lying, when in truth it would seem you have not studied this issue out?
1] God has never intended to save every person ever born. The bible clearly does not teach that.
2] when he says all men, it means not the jew only, it means Kings, those in authority, young ,old, gentiles,all manner of sinners
3] Where does the bible claim God predestines men to hell? God elects a multitude to be saved, the others are "passed" over to remain with their love of sin.
4] Why would you suggest Paul must be lying, when in truth it would seem you have not studied this issue out?
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So far not one of the Calvinistas has an answer:
Tell me how this "natural cherub" business works. You know the kind that were programmed at creation with a "bug" which inevitably led to their doom in the lake of fire, a consequence far beyond their ability or will to prevent it.
Same goes for these loser "natural angels". Created for the sole purpose of destruction
Evidently the Calvinites believe that God hated Satan from before the foundation of the world.
Or that Satan missed out on the hopelessly rigged "election lottery" even though he never even bought a ticket.
Tell me how this "natural cherub" business works. You know the kind that were programmed at creation with a "bug" which inevitably led to their doom in the lake of fire, a consequence far beyond their ability or will to prevent it.
Same goes for these loser "natural angels". Created for the sole purpose of destruction
Evidently the Calvinites believe that God hated Satan from before the foundation of the world.
Or that Satan missed out on the hopelessly rigged "election lottery" even though he never even bought a ticket.
Except if you are Satan or a fallen Angel. The gospel will not help them at all.
By your standard they were created intentionally flawed, a ticking time bomb meant to be destroyed. Their actions, will or deeds post creation are completely irrelevant on the one hand. But what is worse is that their their wicked actions will and deeds were the plan and purpose of God to begin with, as part of their mindless ROBOTIC programming.
Afterwards,God simply kicks them to the curb, the lake of fire.
Same goes for these supposed "natural men".
In fact @Magenta has stated very clearly that unfallen Adam and Eve were "natural men", therefore intrinsically and FATALLY flawed and inevitably doomed to destruction. They were not created very good they were created very doomed and damned, and were ticking time bomb's.
Just like Satan.
By your standard they were created intentionally flawed, a ticking time bomb meant to be destroyed. Their actions, will or deeds post creation are completely irrelevant on the one hand. But what is worse is that their their wicked actions will and deeds were the plan and purpose of God to begin with, as part of their mindless ROBOTIC programming.
Afterwards,God simply kicks them to the curb, the lake of fire.
Same goes for these supposed "natural men".
In fact @Magenta has stated very clearly that unfallen Adam and Eve were "natural men", therefore intrinsically and FATALLY flawed and inevitably doomed to destruction. They were not created very good they were created very doomed and damned, and were ticking time bomb's.
Just like Satan.
The gospel isn't for angels. They have no redeemer. But they were made good and very good like everything else God made. They made their decision. It was a free moral choice. The same with Adam and Eve. But Satan didn't represent all angels. So the effects of his sin didn't affect all the other angels because they weren't in him. The same is not true of Adam's progeny because they were in him. So all died as a result of his sin. The image of God was corrupted in mankind. The effect was entire or total in that it corrupted every facet of man...his mind, his heart, and his will. And that is why men do not seek after God. He is at enmity with God. Man's will is now subject to his fallen nature and slave to sin. While man remains able to make choices, he is no longer a free moral agent, and remains under the influence of his corrupted nature until that nature is redeemed.
And there YOU go again with a self-contradictory statement, "I didn't imply God is unloving. I said casting someone into hell is not a manifestation of love", which I have shown you how to avoid by understanding that evil people cast themselves into hell.
Some biblical statements make the same mistake of blaming God for evil, because the writers did not always keep Moses' statement in DT 30:19 in mind, which was spot on and consistent with the New Testament that God loves everyone including enemies all of the time and even by enforcing His moral law of love! As someone has said: the fire than warms also burns.
Some biblical statements make the same mistake of blaming God for evil, because the writers did not always keep Moses' statement in DT 30:19 in mind, which was spot on and consistent with the New Testament that God loves everyone including enemies all of the time and even by enforcing His moral law of love! As someone has said: the fire than warms also burns.
This is true. They choose. And they choose darkness and death.
Mat 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I G2309 have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would G2309 not!
The KJV translates Strong's G2309 in the following manner: will/would (159x), will/would have (16x), desire (13x), desirous (3x), list (3x), to will (2x), miscellaneous (4x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
Mat 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I G2309 have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would G2309 not!
The KJV translates Strong's G2309 in the following manner: will/would (159x), will/would have (16x), desire (13x), desirous (3x), list (3x), to will (2x), miscellaneous (4x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
- to will, have in mind, intend
- to be resolved or determined, to purpose
- to desire, to wish
- to love
- to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
- to take delight in, have pleasure
Mat 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I G2309 have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would G2309 not!
And there is no doubt whatsoever that this kind of calling and plea of Jesus God was repeated to:
-Pharaoh at the time of Exodus
-Canaanites at the time of the conquest
-ALL of the nations roundabout Jerusalem
How do we know this? Because some DID heed the call and some DID repent.
Furthermore, God sent prophets endlessly to Israel and Judah with this same plea.
And some DID repent.
All unforced, all an act of FREE WILL for those within the created order.
However, the Calvinistas think that post-fall "natural men" are all mindless robots programmed to destruction.
The Calvinites say that all created men are FATALLY flawed with doomsday programming where they suffer "total depravity" and a terminal condition of "total inability" to make ANY FREE WILL decision other than that which leads to the lake of fire.
And what's worse, they say that God, with full knowledge and intent, created BILLIONS of souls with no free will to choose Him,
in effect condemning them to the lake of fire, a predicament predicated upon a "rigged election lottery" that they are not in any way a party to, as the tally was finished before they were ever born.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I G2309 have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would G2309 not!
And there is no doubt whatsoever that this kind of calling and plea of Jesus God was repeated to:
-Pharaoh at the time of Exodus
-Canaanites at the time of the conquest
-ALL of the nations roundabout Jerusalem
How do we know this? Because some DID heed the call and some DID repent.
Furthermore, God sent prophets endlessly to Israel and Judah with this same plea.
And some DID repent.
All unforced, all an act of FREE WILL for those within the created order.
However, the Calvinistas think that post-fall "natural men" are all mindless robots programmed to destruction.
The Calvinites say that all created men are FATALLY flawed with doomsday programming where they suffer "total depravity" and a terminal condition of "total inability" to make ANY FREE WILL decision other than that which leads to the lake of fire.
And what's worse, they say that God, with full knowledge and intent, created BILLIONS of souls with no free will to choose Him,
in effect condemning them to the lake of fire, a predicament predicated upon a "rigged election lottery" that they are not in any way a party to, as the tally was finished before they were ever born.
1. It does in 1TM 2:3-4, for example.
2. Yes, "all" is all-inclusive, which you deny.
3. The Bible doesn't claim God predestines the non-elect to hell, but those who deny that God provides all the opportunity to be saved imply such. Jesus suggests that few are chosen or elect.
4. I have studied this issue ever since about 1970, including seminary studies on Augustine of Hippo, Calvin, etcetera, so in the words of Paul, I have studied my best to be approved by God. Sorry you do not find my efforts very good.
2. Yes, "all" is all-inclusive, which you deny.
3. The Bible doesn't claim God predestines the non-elect to hell, but those who deny that God provides all the opportunity to be saved imply such. Jesus suggests that few are chosen or elect.
4. I have studied this issue ever since about 1970, including seminary studies on Augustine of Hippo, Calvin, etcetera, so in the words of Paul, I have studied my best to be approved by God. Sorry you do not find my efforts very good.