Understanding God’s election

[Everlasting-Grace]

Your last statement is true. But apart from the intervention of God, all will choose death. If it were not so, salvation wouldn't be necessary to begin with.

it would not?

This is a nonsensical statement.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Salvation is consummated in space and time. So while it was in one regard accomplished before the foundation of the world, it was not implemented or consummated before the world was formed.

And it is not completed until the person says I do.

 

[Cameron143]

One can be sovereign, and still be loving.

Agree.

 

[Magenta]

Salvation is consummated in space and time. So while it was in one regard accomplished before the
foundation of the world, it was not implemented or consummated before the world was formed.

Yet you said it was applied to Adam and Eve and that they were therefore saved.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

God may not choose for us, but He definitely enables the choosing that takes place.

Yes he does,

He enables everyone the opportunity.

But he will not overrule their free choice.. Not everyone will receive his love..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

How free was he? As a natural man, he certainly had a propensity to sin. Otherwise, he would not and could not have sinned.

And God already knew which way the chips would fall... Eve was deceived but Adam was disobedient without being deceived.

Adam was as free as you or I.

He could have resisted and told Eve no. he could have fought for her instead of letting her sin.. Thats why the onus falls on Adam. Eve was deceived. Adam knew what he was doing..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Grace is a state of being. Once God grants it, you have it and are in that state of being. It starts with that state of being called repentance. This leads you to the state of being called belief (faith), and then to the state of being called love for God first, and all others as we love ourselves. You can't refuse it, and once you have it, you want to keep it.

We are born in a state of grace.

no one deserves to live, even the baby, who is in adam..

 

[cv5]

And it is not completed until the person says I do.

Thats right.

As typified in the Jewish wedding contract, where the Bride has EVERY RIGHT and opportunity to say NO, and decline the offer of marriage.

What's worse, @Magenta says that not only does the Church/Bride has zero rights as regards this offer of marriage,
Mary was provided ZERO RIGHTS and no option to decline the miraculous conception!

 

[Magenta]

Adam was as free as you or I.

He could have resisted and told Eve no. he could have fought for her instead of letting her sin..
Thats why the onus falls on Adam. Eve was deceived. Adam knew what he was doing..

Christ set us free. When did Christ set Adam free?

 

[ZNP]

I have not swamped the OP with a lot of Scripture quotations,
but hopefully you will recall the NT verses which confirm the following …

Man is doubly incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel
1 – Because of the disobedience (sin) of Adam and Eve,
all humans are born with an inherited sin nature,
and are bent on sinning instead of following God (Romans 3:9-18).
Having a saving faith is against their very nature!
2 - All unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan,
and are bent on doing whatever he wants them to do (2 Timothy 2:26).
Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free (Luke 4:18).
Having a saving faith is against our enemy’s plans for them,
which, of course, is spending eternity with Satan and his demons in hell.
If the God-worshipping Lydia (Acts 16:14) needs God to give her the necessary
faith to believe in Jesus and the Gospel, surely everyone does also!
Similarly, the “anyones” who believe in Jesus in verses such as John 3:16
are the ones whom God has given saving faith!

No. You have used things that are true to come up with a false conclusion. Yes, we all have a sin nature, but we also were created by God with a desire for God. This is why all men worship something, it is how they are created. However, no person will ever be satisfied worshipping anything or anyone other than Jesus Christ. We are created like magnets that will always be attracted to Jesus Christ.

Again, no. Yes, we were all captive to the world, but Jesus blood frees us from that captivity. His blood breaks every chain. Now there is no doubt that prayer is effective and if you pray to the Lord for the salvation of those you care about that will go a long way. Yes, our being saved is against our enemies plans, but so what, he is a pipsqueak compared to Jesus.

Those whom Father God gives to Jesus are guaranteed salvation

This is all about the unconditional security of the born-again believer.
Multitudes of NT verses are God’s promises of salvation given to His elect.
Surely, those of us who are born again should be continually praising God and
thanking Him for choosing us … and for the Holy Spirit sanctifying us unto holiness
… and for Jesus interceding for us before Father God in heaven.

This is the most wishy washy and worthless doctrine. Because if you pull up all the verses that could be interpreted to mean someone lost their salvation the argument is simply "they were never saved to begin with". Why would Peter tell us to make our calling and election sure? Why would Paul tell us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling? Are they really saying this to people who aren't actually saved?

So the doctrine is meaningless because you have not identified how someone knows that another person has been saved. We are told all the ways to check to see if someone is a false prophet. We are told all the ways we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. But the Bible never tells us how you would know if someone were eternally saved or not. Consider Demas and all those who forsake the Lord for the world. Were they saved? What, Paul is incapable of discerning? Or did Paul say that "time will tell". This doctrine is useless prattling.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

This falls within His permissive will. If it were prescriptive, all would be saved.

which makes the point.

God permits people to reject him, He does not force them to believe. But he also gives them every opportunity. If he does not.. then how can he expect to keep another rebellion from occurring in the future?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Good thing were not Calvinists.

are you though?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I don't have any problems reconciling the two. Each expresses an attribute of God and displays His glory. I just don't buy that casting someone into hell is a manifestation of love, so I don't believe God is manifesting love to all people at all times.

Its not

The love is that he made the way for them to get out of Hell. He died for them.

They rejected him, he did not reject them

Now if he did not give them an opportunity to get out. if he did nto die for them. and kept them from hearing truth. Then you would be correct. it would not be loving at all.. it would be called hate in our terms.

 

[Cameron143]

it would not?

This is a nonsensical statement.

Did Noah seek out God? Abraham? Moses? Did Adam suggest to God that He should sacrifice an animal on his behalf or make a covering for him? Adam, in fact, did just the opposite. He provided his own covering and hid from God.
All relationships with God are initiated by God, whether in the natural or spiritual realm.

 

[cv5]

Man's will is now subject to his fallen nature and slave to sin. While man remains able to make choices, he is no longer a free moral agent, and remains under the influence of his corrupted nature until that nature is redeemed.

False. Post-fall Adam AND the Woman were UNDOUBTELY free moral agents.
The proof is unequivocal and codified for all to see.....

There was ZERO intervention from God when our father and mother made the RIGHT DECISIONS after the fall.
OR the wrong decisions before the fall either!

Their free will reigned supreme in their predicament.
Not only that, Satan had free will to cause chaos in the garden.
And God had free will to do all that He did when He intervened.

All three parties demonstrate the free will principle.

Free will is the INITIAL CONDITION demonstrated in this drama.

"YES, Adam was free to disobey. And he did.....to save his beloved wife. And he ALSO was FREE to repent and confess....and he did.

Adam chose to sin (a wrong choice) of his own free will.....WHILE HE WAS SINLESS AND PERFECT in full fellowship with God.

And THEN, AFTER HE FELL Adam ***chose*** to do the RIGHT THING of his own free will.....by preventing Eve from eating from the tree of life, and refusing to eat from the tree of life himself (which was a devastating temptation under the circumstances! Adam by his own sheer will power refused). And the Adam did the RIGHT THING by testifying TRUTHFULLY (as did the Woman) at the trial of Satan."

 

[ZNP]

Father God elects (chooses) and calls whomever He wishes
Jesus says to the elect, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you ….” (John 16:15).
Surely, here is a strong hint that we should investigate this matter further.
Romans chapter 9 is the most famous proponent of God’s election …
“… that the purpose of election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
… So then, it is not of him who wills (to be elected, chosen, and called),
nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)
God gives grace to whomever He chooses, but no one deserves grace (unmerited favor)!
God gives justice to whomever He chooses, and everyone deserves justice!
God wishes that all could be saved, but it is not possible because He insists on His justice.
“You love justice and hate evil.” (Hebrews 1”9)
God is not willing that any (of us) should perish, but that all (of us) should repent …
… the “us” referring to His elect, who are promised salvation.
Christians are called to confess and repent of their on-going sins,
and the blood of Jesus will cleanse them of all their unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-9).

We vote for a president. One will be elected. If you were to become president, or whatever job you have you need to realize God has elected you for that job. However, it doesn't change the fact that we will be judged for the things we do in this life. You may be a great president, you may be a terrible one. You would never have become president if God had not elected you, so when you appear before the judgment seat saying you won the election is not going to mean anything. What will matter is what you did as President. Those are the things that will justify you or condemn you.

 

[Cameron143]

are you though?

Nope, despite what seems the best efforts of some to suggest otherwise.

 

[Cameron143]

False. Post-fall Adam AND the Woman were UNDOUBTELY free moral agents.
The proof is unequivocal and codified for all to see.....

There was ZERO intervention from God when our father and mother made the RIGHT DECISIONS after the fall.
OR the wrong decisions before the fall either!

Their free will reigned supreme in their predicament.
Not only that, Satan had free will to cause chaos in the garden.
And God had free will to do all that He did when He intervened.

All three parties demonstrate the free will principle.

Free will is the INITIAL CONDITION demonstrated in this drama.

"YES, Adam was free to disobey. And he did.....to save his beloved wife. And he ALSO was FREE to repent and confess....and he did.

Adam chose to sin (a wrong choice) of his own free will.....WHILE HE WAS SINLESS AND PERFECT in full fellowship with God.

And THEN, AFTER HE FELL Adam ***chose*** to do the RIGHT THING of his own free will.....by preventing Eve from eating from the tree of life, and refusing to eat from the tree of life himself (which was a devastating temptation under the circumstances! Adam by his own sheer will power refused). And the Adam did the RIGHT THING by testifying TRUTHFULLY (as did the Woman) at the trial of Satan."

Adam didn't seek out God after sin. He hid from God. That's an odd confession.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Viewing God as schizophrenic is NOT reconciling love and justness, but I also don't buy that God casts people into hell.

Rev 20: 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

What would you call this? Just asking..

 

[cv5]

Yes, we were all captive to the world, but Jesus blood frees us from that captivity. His blood breaks every chain.

And this faith/grace principle has been operative......SINCE THE FALL OF ADAM. And to be clear: POST FALL ADAM.

God redeemed Adam and the Woman (despite the ignorant protestations of the obstinate Calvinites) and they were both saved.
Anyone, absolutely anyone, can avail themselves of this same salvation.
And they can (if they G2309 "desire" to do so) receive it BY EXACTLY THE SAME PATTERN of repentance, confession and faith.