Understanding God’s election

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Jan 13, 2016
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Oh my - you're ducking and trying to obfuscate the intent of 1:2! You can't actually believe it is "aimed at" the nation of Israel (unless you mean spiritual Israel). I realize you are easily confused but try to read these verses closely. 1.2 clearly tells us Peter is addressing the ELECT, not Israel. You should have been able to ascertain that and the intent of 1:2 for yourself simply by reading it closely.

[1Pe 1:1-2 KJV]
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
You left off the next verse. Israel was begotten of God as a nation in the wilderness, OT. They will be begotten again in the future preparing them or their promised kingdom on earth, the restoration of the kingdom of Israel with their Messiah ruling on the throne of David in Jerusalem. Peter is in view of those days yet to come.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
 
Nov 21, 2020
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First mention principle and a few others.

Isaiah 42:Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isaiah 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
you cant see salvation in the passages I set forth.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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You left off the next verse. Israel was begotten of God as a nation in the wilderness, OT. They will be begotten again in the future preparing them or their promised kingdom on earth, the restoration of the kingdom of Israel with their Messiah ruling on the throne of David in Jerusalem. Peter is in view of those days yet to come.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
No, not the nation of Israel - Israel is not mentioned in that verse anywhere; the "us" in it is comprised of individuals. You shouldn't add to the verse your assumption of what was intended. Do you see the "begotten us again" in the verse? It means born-again. To be born-again does not apply to the nation of Israel but only to the elect/saved.

The ESV translation may state it a little more clearly:

[1Pe 1:3 ESV] 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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You left off the next verse. Israel was begotten of God as a nation in the wilderness, OT. They will be begotten again in the future preparing them or their promised kingdom on earth, the restoration of the kingdom of Israel with their Messiah ruling on the throne of David in Jerusalem. Peter is in view of those days yet to come.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Under what covenant?
 
Jan 13, 2016
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No, not the nation of Israel - Israel is not mentioned in that verse anywhere; the "us" in it is comprised of individuals. You shouldn't add to the verse your assumption of what was intended. Do you see the "begotten us again" in the verse? It means born-again. To be born-again does not apply to the nation of Israel but only to the elect/saved.

The ESV translation may state it a little more clearly:

[1Pe 1:3 ESV] 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
The word “again” begs to differ.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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The word “again” begs to differ.
I don't understand your point, but this is its definition

anagennaō

Beget, Bear (Of Begetting), Born:
ana, "again, or from above," with No. 1, is found in 1Pe 1:3, 23.
Note: In Jhn 3:3, 5, 7, the adverb anothen, "anew, or from above," accompanies the simple verb gennao.

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. to produce again, be born again, born anew
  2. metaph. to have one's mind changed so that he lives a new life and one conformed to the will of God
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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The word “again” begs to differ.
The word "again" simply means "born from above" -- it speaks to a birth that is in addition to the physical birth -- a birth by the Spirit of the Living God. Jesus makes this contrasting parallel between these two kinds of birth in John 3 with Nicodemus.

Also, the Israelites in the wilderness were not given the Holy Spirit. They were not indwelt by Him. You're trying to make the passage say too much. Plus in 1:23, Peter again restates that the new birth pertains to him and his original audience.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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First, don't tell me what to stick with.
Second, don't evade my post -reply to the points raised therein, unless, that is, you are unable to reply to them. I noticed you do that often - ignore points that you cannot refute. You demanded an answer to your question, which I answered. Now respond to my post and don't change the subject.
We're all trying to trick you... aye, rogerg?
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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The "flesh" = sinful nature. And that nature is inextricably entwined with our body and soul; for sin affected the entire person. It affected us physiologically, psychologically and spiritually. In short, the Fall utterly ruined mankind, which is how and why the prophet could basically say that from the crown of man's head to the bottom of his feet, there is no spiritual/moral soundness (Isa 1:5-6) ! The new birth in this life affects the immaterial part of man -- the spiritual, the soul, the heart, the mind. These aspects are renewed through the process of sanctification. But the body is not renewed! Instead the body dies due to sin, which is precisely why the entire creation awaits and eagerly groans for the redemption of the saints' bodies at the Parousia -- at which time our redemption will be totally consummated (Rom 8:19ff.).

Since the souls of all saints who die in this age are immediately ushered into the presence of God in heaven, and nothing impure can enter into God's presence, then it's not possible for any departed godly soul to be tainted with sin any longer. And there is even more solid evidence for this since scripture teaches that "flesh and blood" cannot enter the Kingdom of God (1Cor 15:50). In other words our earthly bodies could never enter into the presence of God in his holy habitat. God only comes down from heaven to earth to dwell with mankind after the saints receive their new glorified bodies that will be free from all corruption (Rev 21).

And the third line of solid evidence for all this can be seen in Rom 8:10-11, which basically states that our bodies ARE [still currently] DEAD due to sin (which affirms what I wrote above), yet, our spirits are alive due to righteousness. And this fact, doubtlessly accounts for why all saints (save for those alive at the rapture) must suffer physical death. This current body that we're in MUST be destroyed! But in v. 11, the promise is that God, who raised Jesus from the dead, WILL [also in the future] give life to our mortal bodies, which of course will occur when Jesus returns to resurrect the righteous and the wicked and judge the living and the dead.

I hope this answers your question.
You did it again....

There is a pattern you follow that drags each exchange sideways and into a ditch.

You did not answer my question. It's a simple yes-no... type.

If someone dies?
His soul leaves his body.

Is that soul then freed from the flesh that opposes God?


Is that soul then free?


:oops: ???

I did not ask for a diversion into a dissertation about the words used.
Just a conclusion.

If you can't answer it?
It means you do not know enough to do so.

We've all been there.

.........
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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How does your post prove your point? Did God choose pigs or cows or horses to serve him? Of course not! He chose specific individuals! Service to God has from the very beginning been the call to mankind.
He did choose some who are pig-headed. Bull headed...

Who will need transformation by grace, to God's glory.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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That truce didn't last long.
True. Let me try to get us back on the main topic.

I will conclude this discussion of a biblical hermeneutic by applying it to the problematic doctrine of election. Synonyms for “elect” include: elect (MT 24:22,24&31) = disciples (MT 28:7-8,13,16&19) = reborn (JN 3:3&7) = believers (JN 3:16, 5:24, 6:35-40 & 20:29) = saints (ACTS 9:32, RM 1:7, 8:27) = Christians (ACTS 11:26, 26:28) = saved (ACTS 16:30-31) = those in Christ (RM 8:1, EPH 1:1-13) = Spirit-led (RM 8:2-16) = children/sons/heirs of God (RM 8:14-21) = the grafted in (RM 11:17-24) = sanctified/church member (1CR 1:2) = God’s people (1CR 16:1) = church/saints (2CR 1:1 = the faithful/holy (EPH 1:1, PHP 1:2) = chosen in Christ (EPH 1:4-11) = members of God’s household (EPH 2:19) = soldier/worker (PHL v.2&24)

Calvinists interpret RM 11:5-7 and EPH 1:4-14 as teaching God predetermines some souls to be saved or elect, while others are condemned to hell. The need is to harmonize these Scriptures with other Scriptures teaching that souls have moral free will and thus are accountable for choosing whether to cooperate with God, including the following:

DT 30:19, “This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.”

MT 23:37, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”

JN 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

1TM 2:3b-4, “God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”

Can these Scriptures be harmonized or are we going to engage in doublespeak? IMO a way to harmonize these two categories of Scripture is as follows:

1. Paul views the elect as those who receive God’s grace though faith instead of trying to merit salvation by obeying moral laws (RM 11:5-6, EPH 2:4-10). God initiates; souls cooperate–or not.

2. RM 11:7 says, “What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did”, which seems to speak of both corporate Israel and elect individuals including those from corporate “Gentiledom” (who comprise corporate Christendom aka the spiritual church/kingdom of God). An all-loving God would have elected to give everyone a new heart, and on what just basis would He elect some sinners rather than others? Thus we conclude that some Jews cooperated with God, but others did not and shut their ears and eyes to GW (RM 11:7-10, ACTS 28:25-28)

3. The Jews as a whole did not fall completely beyond recovery or from the possibility of being saved, because the possibility of Gentiles receiving salvation may make some of them envious and prompt them also to accept God’s grace (RM 11:11-14, 1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16).

4. Gentiles should not feel superior to Jews, because all are broken off the tree of life because of unbelief or grafted into the tree of life by faith (RM 11:15-21, DT 30:19, MT 23:37).

5. God is stern toward those who reject His POS and kind to all (1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16) who accept grace, if they continue to cooperate rather than persist in unbelief/unwillingness (RM 11:22-24, DT 30:19, MT 23:37).

6. God allows Jews to be hardened and become ungodly enemies just as the Gentiles were (cf. ACTS 28:26-27), so that He may have mercy on them all–that is, on all He chooses to elect, which is all (1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16) who reflect His love by accepting Messiah/Christ (DT 30:19, MT 23:37). In this way His POS is just (2TH 1:6).
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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I now have a very serious question to ask all you guys who subscribe to FreeWill Theology (hereafter FWT). (I know you don't like the Arminian or Pelagian labels, so I made one up.) But before getting to the question itself, let's review the major, salient points to your theology so that hopefully I won't be accused of putting words into anyone's mouth.

FWT theology teaches, with respect to God's elect and their salvation, that God chooses (elects) only those he foresaw in eternity would elect him first by coming to saving faith in Christ and repent of their sins. FWT theology insists that God's moral agents have the capacity (ability) to make make contrary spiritual/moral choices. And if sinners do not have that ability, then its adherents conclude that God must be a tyrannical bully who forces his will upon them. And moreover, God's image-bearers must be something less than human -- just mere robots in the absence of this ability. Additionally, all people must be able to determine their own eternal destiny, otherwise God cannot judge them with a righteous judgment.

The bottom line theological implication, therefore, to FWT is that since it is the lost sinner who ultimately determines his spiritual/eternal destiny, then it the sinner who actually makes the difference in salvation -- not their [potential] savior. All the Savior did in eternity was gaze through his cosmic crystal ball and affirm and validate the sinner's "freewill" choice. The Savior's main role is merely to observe and react accordingly. And it is precisely this role that makes God a potential Savior in FWT.

Therefore, since all this is the case, here's my question with respect to prayer for lost souls: Why do you freewillers pray for lost souls when it is not God who primarily and ultimately causes them repent of their sins and believe the gospel? God is NOT the one who makes the difference in an individual's salvation. The sinner ultimately makes the difference by his "freewill" choice! The sinner, being in full control of his eternal destiny is his/her own ultimate cause for salvation. So, how is it useful or practical or logical to pray to a being who will not and cannot make the difference? It seems that freewillers think God has drawn a line in the sand that he would never cross. God doesn't actually bring anyone into his Kingdom; rather he leaves sinners ample private space to bring themselves into his kingdom via their "freewill" decision.

Think about your prayer life in other respects. Doesn't it make sense to pray to God for healing since he directly can exert healing power if it's his will? Or doesn't it make sense to pray to God for a job when He, through his providence, can actually supply you with employment? Or doesn't it make sense to pray for the outcome of elections, since the King of the universe raises up kings and tears them down, etc., etc.? In all these examples God ultimately is the primary cause behind the outcomes, which means He makes the difference! But this, according to FWT, is most certainly not the case with respect to God's elect and their salvation; for the sinner makes the difference each and every time!

So...assuming that all or you or most of you or some of you actually pray to God for the salvation of lost souls, can you explain to us the rationale behind those prayers? Shouldn't you be praying to the person who is actually in control of their spiritual destiny? Shouldn't you be directing your prayers to the ones who actually make the difference?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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May I suggest that we try to improve our discussions on CC by doing what we can to keep the general direction going toward essential agreement/unity rather than being content (or even seeming to prefer) getting stuck going in circles regarding how to interpret GW?
[2Jo 1:11 KJV]
For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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He did choose some who are pig-headed. Bull headed...

Who will need transformation by grace, to God's glory.
Yup, he chose Saul who was an apostate. He chose Cyrus and Nebuchadnezzar to be his ungodly servants to perform his will. Jesus even chose Judas.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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You left off the next verse. Israel was begotten of God as a nation in the wilderness, OT. They will be begotten again in the future preparing them or their promised kingdom on earth, the restoration of the kingdom of Israel with their Messiah ruling on the throne of David in Jerusalem. Peter is in view of those days yet to come.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Not quite yet. But inevitably.

[Act 1:6 KJV]
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,801
8,618
113
I now have a very serious question to ask all you guys who subscribe to FreeWill Theology (hereafter FWT). (I know you don't like the Arminian or Pelagian labels, so I made one up.) But before getting to the question itself, let's review the major, salient points to your theology so that hopefully I won't be accused of putting words into anyone's mouth.

FWT theology teaches, with respect to God's elect and their salvation, that God chooses (elects) only those he foresaw in eternity would elect him first by coming to saving faith in Christ and repent of their sins. FWT theology insists that God's moral agents have the capacity (ability) to make make contrary spiritual/moral choices. And if sinners do not have that ability, then its adherents conclude that God must be a tyrannical bully who forces his will upon them. And moreover, God's image-bearers must be something less than human -- just mere robots in the absence of this ability. Additionally, all people must be able to determine their own eternal destiny, otherwise God cannot judge them with a righteous judgment.

The bottom line theological implication, therefore, to FWT is that since it is the lost sinner who ultimately determines his spiritual/eternal destiny, then it the sinner who actually makes the difference in salvation -- not their [potential] savior. All the Savior did in eternity was gaze through his cosmic crystal ball and affirm and validate the sinner's "freewill" choice. The Savior's main role is merely to observe and react accordingly. And it is precisely this role that makes God a potential Savior in FWT.

Therefore, since all this is the case, here's my question with respect to prayer for lost souls: Why do you freewillers pray for lost souls when it is not God who primarily and ultimately causes them repent of their sins and believe the gospel? God is NOT the one who makes the difference in an individual's salvation. The sinner ultimately makes the difference by his "freewill" choice! The sinner, being in full control of his eternal destiny is his/her own ultimate cause for salvation. So, how is it useful or practical or logical to pray to a being who will not and cannot make the difference? It seems that freewillers think God has drawn a line in the sand that he would never cross. God doesn't actually bring anyone into his Kingdom; rather he leaves sinners ample private space to bring themselves into his kingdom via their "freewill" decision.

Think about your prayer life in other respects. Doesn't it make sense to pray to God for healing since he directly can exert healing power if it's his will? Or doesn't it make sense to pray to God for a job when He, through his providence, can actually supply you with employment? Or doesn't it make sense to pray for the outcome of elections, since the King of the universe raises up kings and tears them down, etc., etc.? In all these examples God ultimately is the primary cause behind the outcomes, which means He makes the difference! But this, according to FWT, is most certainly not the case with respect to God's elect and their salvation; for the sinner makes the difference each and every time!

So...assuming that all or you or most of you or some of you actually pray to God for the salvation of lost souls, can you explain to us the rationale behind those prayers? Shouldn't you be praying to the person who is actually in control of their spiritual destiny? Shouldn't you be directing your prayers to the ones who actually make the difference?
You pseudo-philosophical ranting and raving is utterly useless.
Why? Because you CHOOSE to deny the clear Biblical teaching that is readily available and unequivocal.

REAL CHOICES are being made by men day in and day out.
The nutter Calvinite philosophy demands that CHOOSING low fat yogurt at the grocery store is something that God has pre-programmed along with everything else.

Furthermore, God NEVER forces ANYONE to enter into ANY covenant with Him. It is beneath His dignity, and would validate the lies of Satan.

[2Ki 6:5 NKJV]
But as one was cutting down a tree, the iron [ax head] fell into the water; and he cried out and said, "Alas, master! For it was borrowed."

[2Ki 6:6 NKJV]
So the man of God said, "Where did it fall?" And he showed him the place. So he cut off a stick, and threw [it] in there; and he made the iron float.

[2Ki 6:7 NKJV]
Therefore he said, "Pick [it] up for yourself." So he reached out his hand and took it.

==========================================================================

[Gen 4:7 NKJV]
"If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire [is] for you, but you should rule over it."