Understanding God’s election

[Cranberry]

They insist God enabled some, nowhere found in the text.

They apply eisegisis over and over again and then write books and books thinking their academics makes it all sound biblical.

1 Corinthians 2
"These things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. "


Romans 9 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Mark 4
And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that “‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’”

John 6:65
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”


Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[Rufus]

Following is an edited version of post I wrote some time ago re The Bronze Serpent Typology.

The Serpent was NOT offered to everyone in the camp -- only to the LIVING! Many had died already from their snake bites, so they were given NO chance to "repent", believe and look to the raised serpent to be saved from physical death. The offer for the remainder of the Jews to save themselves from physical death was made only AFTER the other Jews had died; for God "predestined" them to die physically! The physically living, on the other hand, represent God's elect whom he decreed in eternity should live. He did not let them die but actually (NOT potentially) offered them a "salvific" remedy, which they took. And why wouldn't they take it, considering the alternative!? They were well aware that if they didn't they would go the way of their fellow deceased Israelites who had already died from their bites.

Therefore, due to the typological nature of the Numbers account, we can't use this narrative to prove that spiritually dead sinners just naturally have this innate desire for eternal life and want to be saved from their sins, and can save themselves by their own power which freewillers call "freewill" ; for this isn't what is taught in Numbers. The LIVING who looked to the Serpent obviously had this GOD-GIVEN universal gift called SELF-PRESERVATION within them (which even animals have!), which has nothing to do with eternal life in the spiriutal realm. But what ability or enablement or offer did the DEAD Israelites receive to save themselves!? It's cyrstal clear from the passage that this narrative strongly supports the Reformed view of salvation since only the LIVING can respond to a salvation offer.

To take this a step further, the Bronze Serpent narrative is a fantastic illustration of the truth Paul taught in Rom 9:21. The Divine Potter clearly made two lumps of Israelites out of one! The first lump was predestined for ignoble use which is why God punished them with death, giving them no chance to live. The seond lump, while being as guilty as the first, were allowed to live because they were predestined for noble use; therefore, God saved them through his miracle after they were bitten! The fact that both groups (the already dead and the living) were both bitten (punished by God) proves that there wasn't an iota of diffrence between them. Yet, because God MADE the DIFFERENCE between the two groups, the lives of the living were preserved; for God had mercy and compassion on them as HE WILLED.

Did some totally misinformed, ill-advised, overly-optimistic freewiller earlier actually make the bold claim that the Bronze Serpent account is devastating to Calvinism?

 

[Rufus]

And how would this heresy enter the churches if it were not for the fact that it gives itself cover by sounding very Christ/God centered.

Well...it's certainly isnt MAN-CENTERED like FWT is which you guys in vain try to conceal! So...there is that.

 

[Inquisitor]

Ah, I see.
Who were those men traveling with Moses?

Israel.

 

[Inquisitor]

.

 

[Inquisitor]

Following is an edited version of post I wrote some time ago re The Bronze Serpent Typology. The Serpent was NOT offered to everyone in the camp -- only to the LIVING! Many had died already from their snake bites, so they were given NO chance to "repent", believe and look to the raised serpent to be saved from physical death.

You said, "The Serpent was NOT offered to everyone in the camp -- only to the LIVING!"

Everyone died in the desert Rufus and that included Moses.

There never was a temporal distinction between the living and the dead, in the O.T.

 

[Inquisitor]

Well...it's certainly isnt MAN-CENTERED like FWT is which you guys in vain try to conceal! So...there is that.

Nothing man-centered in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Cranberry]

Israel.

Who is Israel?

 

[Rufus]

The bronze serpent that Moses held up is one very high hurdle, for a Calvinist to jump.

Shirely U. Jest!

 

[Inquisitor]

Didn't it take faith to believe that God through looking on the serpent would heal them?

I just read it again (Numbers 21).

They only had to look at the serpent to be healed and no mention of faith.

The only reason the fiery serpents appeared in the first place was because the Israelites were grumbling.

Thanks to the whinging of the Israelites we received a messianic prophecy.

 

[Genez]

Yes it is true none understands spiritual things of God nor seeks God , the True God. And it goes for all men naturally whether jew or gentile, as Paul concludes both are under the power of sin Rom3:9,19

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

When Adam sinned it caused death for the whole human race not just jews, all mankind went apostate

10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.

If that applied to all as you claimed?
Who could have written that passage?

And, it was citing Psalms 14:1-3!

1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. 2 The LORD looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. 3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

NOTE! It says that they "became" that way! Not that way by default, as you would have us to read it!

3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

Why "became" corrupt?

It spoke of a time of great national apostasy in the land and had departed from God's law.

Learn to exegete before you stand up in battel and get shot through with holes in your argument.
Calvinism is not some magic shield. It was an attempt to explain things.

in Christ ..............

 

[rogerg]

Following is an edited version of post I wrote some time ago re The Bronze Serpent Typology.

The Serpent was NOT offered to everyone in the camp -- only to the LIVING! Many had died already from their snake bites, so they were given NO chance to "repent", believe and look to the raised serpent to be saved from physical death. The offer for the remainder of the Jews to save themselves from physical death was made only AFTER the other Jews had died; for God "predestined" them to die physically! The physically living, on the other hand, represent God's elect whom he decreed in eternity should live. He did not let them die but actually (NOT potentially) offered them a "salvific" remedy, which they took. And why wouldn't they take it, considering the alternative!? They were well aware that if they didn't they would go the way of their fellow deceased Israelites who had already died from their bites.

Therefore, due to the typological nature of the Numbers account, we can't use this narrative to prove that spiritually dead sinners just naturally have this innate desire for eternal life and want to be saved from their sins, and can save themselves by their own power which freewillers call "freewill" ; for this isn't what is taught in Numbers. The LIVING who looked to the Serpent obviously had this GOD-GIVEN universal gift called SELF-PRESERVATION within them (which even animals have!), which has nothing to do with eternal life in the spiriutal realm. But what ability or enablement or offer did the DEAD Israelites receive to save themselves!? It's cyrstal clear from the passage that this narrative strongly supports the Reformed view of salvation since only the LIVING can respond to a salvation offer.

To take this a step further, the Bronze Serpent narrative is a fantastic illustration of the truth Paul taught in Rom 9:21. The Divine Potter clearly made two lumps of Israelites out of one! The first lump was predestined for ignoble use which is why God punished them with death, giving them no chance to live. The seond lump, while being as guilty as the first, were allowed to live because they were predestined for noble use; therefore, God saved them through his miracle after they were bitten! The fact that both groups (the already dead and the living) were both bitten (punished by God) proves that there wasn't an iota of diffrence between them. Yet, because God MADE the DIFFERENCE between the two groups, the lives of the living were preserved; for God had mercy and compassion on them as HE WILLED.

Did some totally misinformed, ill-advised, overly-optimistic freewiller earlier actually make the bold claim that the Bronze Serpent account is devastating to Calvinism?

Excellent, Rufus. Never thought about it quite this way before, but I think you're on to something. I'll definitely remember the
points you've raised. However, I'm sure you realize it will not register with the FWTs at all, as happens with everything
we demonstrate to them from the Bible to refute their inane statements- but thank you anyway for posting it.

 

[Inquisitor]

Who is Israel?

The elect.

 

[Rufus]

Nothing man-centered in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

But FWT does not reflect the gospel of Christ. It is totally man-centered, since God's will is SUBSERVIENT to man's. God is reduced to a hand-wringing, brow-sweating, cosmic crystal ball gazer whose only role in an individual's salvation is to observe and react to man's choices. God isn't running the universe; the inmates in the asylum are!

In fact, in FWT God isn't even truly omniscient since He has to learn through his crystal ball gazing what man is going to do BEFORE he reacts.

 

[rogerg]

If that applied to all as you claimed?
Who could have written that passage?

God as with the whole Bible.

 

[Inquisitor]

Not only that but the Serpent on the Pole is Typology! It didn't even involve spiritual salvation but physical salvation that pointed to future eternal, spiritual salvation through Christ under the New Covenant. I wrote a post once about that incident. When I find it, I'll beam it up.

Yeah Rufus, but please don't teleport your theology with it.

 

[Genez]

I’ve been immersed in high Calvinist circles for years—probably some of the most Calvinist spaces you’ll find—and here’s the thing: we don’t go around branding everyone who disagrees with us on supralapsarian election as heretics. Sure, some views on the doctrine of God can veer into heretical territory if taken to their logical extremes. But disagreement on predestination itself does not automatically make someone a heretic, especially if their broader theology is sound.
Take Calvin himself or theologians like Turretin, Perkins, or even Bavinck. They understood that predestination, while central to Reformed theology, is not the dividing line of church unity. Francis Turretin, for instance, emphasized that charity and unity in essentials should govern how we engage with other Christians. Calvin, in his Institutes, always pointed back to the glory of God and the centrality of Christ, not endless polemics over election.
Now, what makes me pause is the way some folks caricature John Calvin, as though he’s some proto-Simon Magus. These critiques often come from people who do not actually engage with Reformed theology but only with its critics. There is a lot of straw-manning out there. If you want to critique Calvinism, read Calvin—or Owen, Edwards, or Hodge. Engage the best of the tradition.
And let’s be real—there are fringe types in every theological camp who throw around the word “heretic” too freely. You can find someone online from any non-universalist tradition ready to anathematize the world. But predestinarian election? It is not even a secondary issue when it comes to church unity. There are far graver errors that deserve the term “heresy,” but this is not one of them.

I have been called a hyper-Calvinist by Calvinists. Don't straw man our view.

Ephesians 1:4 speaks of predestination.

But Calvinists assume what we have been chosen for.

He chose out from all He knows will believe, only a certain number who shall be the Bride of Christ!
God chose you "in Him."

Eve was "in Adam" before she was revealed.
We are now seated In Him in the heavenlies,
awaiting to become bone of His bone and flesh of His glorious flesh!

That is what God predestined the Church for!

 

[ParticularWife]

In fact, in FWT God isn't even truly omniscient since He has to learn through his crystal ball gazing what man is going to do BEFORE he reacts.

Something related is that God's sovereignty isn't of a causal temporal sort, ie God created the universe and knows where it will be at every point from then on: He is always actively the source of being and His decree is not past but eternal. The libertarian position tends to treat God as though He were a very smart person who can predict or look at future events, but God is actually always unchanging and is acting and being, not becoming.

 

[Cameron143]

I just read it again (Numbers 21).

They only had to look at the serpent to be healed and no mention of faith.

The only reason the fiery serpents appeared in the first place was because the Israelites were grumbling.

Thanks to the whinging of the Israelites we received a messianic prophecy.

You don't get it...if they didn't believe it would work, they wouldn't have looked. So they must have believed it would work.

 

[Inquisitor]

But FWT does not reflect the gospel of Christ. It is totally man-centered, since God's will is SUBSERVIENT to man's. God is reduced to a hand-wringing, brow-sweating, cosmic crystal ball gazer whose only role in an individual's salvation is to observe and react to man's choices. God isn't running the universe; the inmates in the asylum are!

In fact, in FWT God isn't even truly omniscient since He has to learn through his crystal ball gazing what man is going to do BEFORE he reacts.

You misunderstood what I said.

All you need to do is occupy your self with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Focus Rufus.

Don't start pointing your finger.

Colossians 1:21-23
And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in
his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him,
provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel
which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became
a minister.

Don't get distracted by men who lost focus, lost faith.