Understanding God’s election

[posthuman]

TOJ #67: Many souls are not truth-seekers. [MT 11:15-19//LK 7:31-35] They are deaf toward the truth, so they do not dance with joy at hearing the gospel; and they are hypercritical of GW, although they may be educated (1CR 1:18-25), so they will not learn no matter what teaching method is used. {MT 13:14-15, JN 8:43, 10:25a&26}

This is similar to TOJ #46. Some statements {MT 11:25-26, MK 4:12//LK 10:21} sound as though Jesus or God wanted to prevent people from understanding the gospel, but since God is not tricky (TOJ #29, #30, #44, #53, etc.), we must infer that Jesus was employing irony.

Whoah whoah whoah

you're saying that when Jesus in very plain language told us in Mark 4 that He specifically taught in parables in order to keep some people blind and deaf, He was essentially lying ???

that's your explanation for clear scripture that contradicts your presumptions?
Jesus Christ is a liar? He says things He means exactly the opposite of, for jokes?

wow.

 

[posthuman]

TOJ #67: Many souls are not truth-seekers. [MT 11:15-19//LK 7:31-35] They are deaf toward the truth, so they do not dance with joy at hearing the gospel; and they are hypercritical of GW, although they may be educated (1CR 1:18-25), so they will not learn no matter what teaching method is used. {MT 13:14-15, JN 8:43, 10:25a&26}

This is similar to TOJ #46. Some statements {MT 11:25-26, MK 4:12//LK 10:21} sound as though Jesus or God wanted to prevent people from understanding the gospel, but since God is not tricky (TOJ #29, #30, #44, #53, etc.), we must infer that Jesus was employing irony.

Merriam Webster:

ironic implies an attempt to be amusing or provocative by saying the opposite of what is meant.​

your answer to Mark 4 is that Jesus Christ, The Truth must be understood to be telling boldfaced lies as a literary device to get a smirk from His audience??

because your theology has no other way of explaining these passages.

dude may i kindly suggest you get a new theology instead.

 

[posthuman]

Some people believe Judas was saved even though he never believed, was pronounced unclean, called a devil, and
a son of perdition by Jesus, which means DOOMED to destruction... which Jesus would never say of a child of God.

Don't ask me how they come to such a nonsense conclusion.

i hoped he could be saved, when i was younger, because i thought if he couldn't be, what hope did i have?

later when i understood more, i came to see he definitely isn't. in fact, i think now he will return: that he is in fact the antichrist.

i still have growing up to do probably haha - - in fact someone just last night on a totally unrelated note told me to

that always makes me feel good, like i am younger than i think i am.

 

[posthuman]

Jesus or God

it occurs to me your argumentation might be improved if you get this part straight:


not "or"

"="


God ((Jesus)) says what He means.

 

[Cranberry]

it occurs to me your argumentation might be improved if you get this part straight:


not "or"

"="


God ((Jesus)) says what He means.

Your post led me to wonder about a topic many discuss now days. AI. Because as many know there are AI fakes on You Tube and elsewhere now.

Do you think AI bots could be a factor in Christian forums now too?

Which may explain why we will read posts that are ,shall I say, poorly worded and with little understanding of the Scriptures from any perspective. I.E Doctrinal, Denominational,etc...

Thoughts?

 

[ParticularWife]

Your post led me to wonder about a topic many discuss now days. AI. Because as many know there are AI fakes on You Tube and elsewhere now.

Do you think AI bots could be a factor in Christian forums now too?

Which may explain why we will read posts that are ,shall I say, poorly worded and with little understanding of the Scriptures from any perspective. I.E Doctrinal, Denominational,etc...

Thoughts?

I employ a pair of LLMs to organize notes and construct lesson plans. These tools exhibit what would be a profound intellectual deficiency in a human being. They speak in vague generalities, offering (sometimes) correct answers in a manner that suggests the parroting of another's opinion rather than genuine conviction. To elicit any semblance of coherence, one must essentially spoon-feed them the correct answers.

Tragically, many individuals remain undereducated in both matters of faith and the English language. These tools, despite their limitations, might actually prove beneficial in instructing them in the fundamental structure of a coherent paragraph.

 

[Inquisitor]

Rescuing Lot... Just one event in Abraham's life but the key to this story is meeting Melchizedek and paying Tithes before the Law established it.

Your correct, the lesser (Abraham) tithed to the greater (Melchizedek).

Hebrews 7:1-7
For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him; and to him Abraham apportioned a tenth part of everything. He is first, by translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then he is also king of Salem, that is, king of peace. He is without father or mother or genealogy, and has neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest for ever. See how great he is! Abraham the patriarch gave him a tithe of the spoils. And those descendants of Levi who receive the priestly office have a commandment in the law to take tithes from the people, that is, from their brethren, though these also are descended from Abraham. But this man who has not their genealogy received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. It is beyond dispute that the inferior is blessed by the superior.

 

[Inquisitor]

Your post led me to wonder about a topic many discuss now days. AI. Because as many know there are AI fakes on You Tube and elsewhere now.

Do you think AI bots could be a factor in Christian forums now too?

Which may explain why we will read posts that are ,shall I say, poorly worded and with little understanding of the Scriptures from any perspective. I.E Doctrinal, Denominational,etc...

Thoughts?

AI is very good at reading the scripture and comprehending the text.

Here is an example from Chat GPT.

Romans 8:29-30 and Calvinism

Romans 8:29-30 reads:

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."​

Calvinists often use this "golden chain of salvation" to support the doctrine of unconditional election—God predestines certain individuals to salvation based on His sovereign will, not on any foreseen faith or merit in them. The progression from foreknowledge to predestination, calling, justification, and glorification is seen as a seamless work of God's grace.

Contextual Considerations in Romans

However, the broader context of Romans introduces nuances that complicate a purely Calvinistic interpretation:

Paul's Focus on Israel and the Gentiles:

• The immediate and extended context of Romans (chapters 9-11, especially) centers on God’s plan for Israel and the inclusion of the Gentiles. Paul explains how the Jews, despite being God's chosen people, failed to achieve righteousness through the law, while the Gentiles obtained righteousness through faith.
• In this context, “foreknowledge” (Greek proginōskō) may not imply an individual predestining of believers but rather God’s covenantal foreknowledge of a group (e.g., Israel) or a plan for humanity.

Covenantal Election vs. Individual Election:

• Some argue that the election discussed in Romans is primarily corporate or covenantal rather than individual. That is, God foreknew and predestined a people (the church, comprising Jews and Gentiles) to be conformed to Christ’s image.
• This interpretation aligns with the themes in Romans 9-11, where Paul discusses the remnant of Israel and the grafting in of Gentiles into the olive tree of God's people.

Paul’s Concern for the Jews:

• As you noted, Paul expresses a deep concern for the Jews, longing for their salvation (Romans 9:1-5, 10:1). In Romans 11:14, he hopes to provoke his fellow Jews to jealousy so that some might be saved. This seems inconsistent with the Calvinist doctrine of double predestination, where the fate of individuals is irrevocably determined before birth.

Human Responsibility and Faith:

• Throughout Romans, Paul emphasizes the necessity of faith for salvation (e.g., Romans 3:21-26, 10:9-13). This can be seen as placing some emphasis on human responsibility in responding to God’s call, which some argue is at odds with Calvinism's emphasis on irresistible grace.

Does the Context Suppress Calvinism?

The answer depends on how one interprets key terms like "foreknew" and "predestined" and the scope of Paul’s argument:

Support for Calvinism:

• A Calvinist reading of Romans 8:29-30 is possible if one sees the passage as emphasizing God’s sovereign work in the salvation of individuals, independent of human effort or will.
• Challenges to Calvinism:
  • The broader context of Romans, with its focus on God’s dealings with Israel and the inclusion of the Gentiles, lends itself more naturally to a corporate or covenantal understanding of election, which may challenge a strict Calvinist interpretation.
  • Furthermore, Paul's stated hope for the salvation of his fellow Jews and his acknowledgment of their responsibility to respond to God’s call (e.g., Romans 10:21) suggest that human agency plays a role in God’s plan of salvation.

 

[Inquisitor]

I think Judas was Saved. I also think we need to remember that Judas was possessed by Satan so to betray Jesus.

I think that explains why Judas hanged himself. Cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree. And his repentance is on record when he went to the temple and returned the silver.

Satan in possessing Judas so that Jesus could be crucified and fulfill his purpose in dying as the unblemished lamb taking the Sins of the world upon Himself actually took the power of death from Satan.

God works all things for His purpose. That's Sovereign Dominion.

That's our Father!

Matthew 26:24
The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!
It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.

I believe Judas was not saved.

 

[Inquisitor]

Look at the young man in Corinth who was sleeping with his mother. A believer he was.

Look at David, who had Bathsheba's husband murdered after he committed adultery with her.

And... look at the apostle Paul, who returned to the temple for sacrifice, for which God had him come within one inch of being killed.

God saves sinners.

Philippians 3:17-18
Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.
For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,
whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.

Does God save Christians who love wealth or worldliness?

 

[Genez]

God predestines when people are to be alive to believe.
If you were chosen in Him? (Eph 1:4)
That means God predestined you to be born during the church age to become the Bride of Christ when you believed.

Now? If God did not predestine your salvation for the time of the Church age?
Then you could have been one of the Chosen people of the age of Israel, who are not the Bride of Christ.

John the Baptist knew he was not to be the Bride of Christ, but rather, the friend of the Groom....and said so.

The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom
waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice.
That joy is mine, and it is now complete." John 3:29

Remember! That was a Jewish style wedding, and that was how it was performed

When someone "hears the voice of the Groom" in the Bible, it refers to experiencing great joy, specifically relating to the analogy of a wedding where a friend of the groom is overjoyed to hear the groom's voice, signifying the arrival of the bride and the celebration of the marriage.

 

[Genez]

Philippians 3:17-18
Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.
For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,
whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.

Does God save Christians who love wealth or worldliness?

YES! But...
They will be losers at their evaluation by the Lord, yet saved.

Look here!

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be
revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has
been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will
suffer loss, but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.



1 Corinthians 3:11-15

 

[fredoheaven]

Romans 8:29 is the purpose of predistination i.e. to be in conformity to Christ which is the growth of the saints not counted for individual salvation.

 

[ParticularWife]

I want to bring Martin Luther's other views into this: God has chosen for His own glory his Elect, and He has also willed the sin and destruction of the sinners. Lutherans will often deny that Luther taught double predestination, but it's gymnastics to do so.
From the Bondage of the Will,

"For God not only foresaw that Adam would sin, but willed it. And this is a terrible and an astonishing saying, yet nevertheless certain and true. For if God did not will it, it would not have happened; and if He had not foreseen it, He would not have permitted it."

There's a good article that's hard to find on this, by Brian G. Mattson, Double Or Nothing: Martin Luther's Doctrine of Predestination:

"All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned."

"It is, therefore, in the power of the wicked to sin; but that in sinning they should do this or that by that wickedness is not in their power, but in God's, who divides the darkness and regulates it; so that hence even what they do contrary to God's will is not fulfilled except it be God's will."

"God does whatsoever he wills in the hearts of even wicked men

 

[GWH]

I admit that's a new one. Irony.

It's untrue but as far as denying Jesus meant what he taught, it is a new one.

Irony is NOT denying anything. It is saying something different from what might be expected, akin to paradox.

My Bible shows that in MT 11:16-19 Jesus was quoting a children's jingle:

"We played the flute for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
and you did not mourn."

Both of these lines employ the literary technique known as irony.

Then Jesus said:

"For John came neither eating nor drinking,
and they say, 'He has a demon.'
The Son of Man came eating and drinking,
and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard...'"

Again we see an irony, employed to teach the point that
"Wisdom is proved right by her actions."

Which is different from what some might expect.

(You're welcome for the English lesson :^)

 

[HeIsHere]

But you see, you actually are. You have determined what God is and is not, rather than let scripture make the determination.

I would say the traditionalist view is very good at looking at the big picture and I think @John146 has made post regarding who God is and why He did what He did.
The problem is that some "theology" makes God more about sovereignty ( completely wrongly defined as the absolute control of every human action, as though people are automatons) than who He declares Himself to be.

 

[HeIsHere]

You have a real problem with Original Sin, don't you?

Original sin was concocted by Augustine of Hippo.

 

[Magenta]

Whoah whoah whoah

you're saying that when Jesus in very plain language told us in Mark 4 that He specifically taught in parables in order to keep some people blind and deaf, He was essentially lying ???

that's your explanation for clear scripture that contradicts your presumptions?
Jesus Christ is a liar? He says things He means exactly the opposite of, for jokes?

wow.

Yes, truly incredible that one who puts himself forward as a teacher would make Jesus out to be a liar. Shameful, really.

 

[Cameron143]

I would say the traditionalist view is very good at looking at the big picture and I think @John146 has made post regarding who God is and why He did what He did.
The problem is that some "theology" makes God more about sovereignty ( completely wrongly defined as the absolute control of every human action, as though people are automatons) than who He declares Himself to be.

Appreciate you sharing.

 

[HeIsHere]

It is interesting to watch. Sad, but interesting. They can't say the quiet part out loud. So they TRY to sound as Arminian as possible, because their quiet part is INSANITY. And Both Calvinism and Arminianism are full of holes.

Insightful and agree both are full of holes.
The "quiet part" is quite insane indeed.