Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

Answer to your question.
God never did that. Therefore,if you believe it to be true you are in error from Genesis onward.

There is nothing to be said after that to those who know better.

Well, then, you need to explain numerous passages that teach differently. Also, the virgin birth of Christ was absolutely necessary -- for a reason! There is a reason why Jesus could not come into this world via the normal, natural procreation process.

Moreover, it would seem to me that if the sons of men do not come into this world with an evil nature that is biased against God, then statistically speaking there should be at least ONE human being born naturally who would be inherently good and never sin. Is just one human being out of billions and billions over the many millennia too much to expect statistically!?

Now what exactly did God never do: Impute Adam's sin to all his progeny or decree that man's fall would damage and corrupt all four of man's faculties and would be totally irreversible apart from his saving grace?

 

[lrs68]

What information did Abraham have that Moses didn't?

Abraham had first hand knowledge about the promise between God and himself. Abraham, grandson of Noah, great great .... grandson of Enoch would have more in depth knowledge of how it was when God took Enoch or how life was during the Ark through the Flood.

This is just a few of several things including the fact Abraham was able to witness the destruction of Sodom and the Plain cities. Abraham would have had better first hand knowledge of why and how Sodom was deemed wicked.

 

[Magenta]

Sin existed before Adam. Before the world's creation.

 

[Cameron143]

Abraham had first hand knowledge about the promise between God and himself. Abraham, grandson of Noah, great great .... grandson of Enoch would have more in depth knowledge of how it was when God took Enoch or how life was during the Ark through the Flood.

This is just a few of several things including the fact Abraham was able to witness the destruction of Sodom and the Plain cities. Abraham would have had better first hand knowledge of why and how Sodom was deemed wicked.

Moses probably wrote the Pentateuch. Seems he had plenty of firsthand knowledge directly from God, no?

 

[Magenta]

Moses probably wrote the Pentateuch. Seems he had plenty of firsthand knowledge directly from God, no?

So unfair of God according to some... the big ol' meanie that He is in their theology.

No wonder they deny so much of Scripture... since they find personal revelation an idea worthy of mockery and scorn.

It all makes so much more sense to me now... like a big piece of the puzzle just falling into place!

 

[Inquisitor]

Some people believe Judas was saved even though he never believed, was pronounced unclean, called a devil, and
a son of perdition by Jesus, which means DOOMED to destruction... which Jesus would never say of a child of God.

Don't ask me how they come to such a nonsense conclusion.

Because God chose the 12, Magenta.

 

[Cranberry]

Well, then, you need to explain numerous passages that teach differently. Also, the virgin birth of Christ was absolutely necessary -- for a reason! There is a reason why Jesus could not come into this world via the normal, natural procreation process.

Moreover, it would seem to me that if the sons of men do not come into this world with an evil nature that is biased against God, then statistically speaking there should be at least ONE human being born naturally who would be inherently good and never sin. Is just one human being out of billions and billions over the many millennia too much to expect statistically!?

Now what exactly did God never do: Impute Adam's sin to all his progeny or decree that man's fall would damage and corrupt all four of man's faculties and would be totally irreversible apart from his saving grace?

Why would Adam and Eve die after they fell? Because they were mortal. They were no longer in what Jesus was when he had put off the flesh prior to ascension, a glorified body.

When Adam disobeyed God Sin entered the world. The world. Not Adam's body.

Read 1 Corinthians 15

Death of Adam was made possible because his disobedience was a sign he chose to satisfy the things of the flesh. Not uphold the edicts of the spirit.

We are born mortal in the world where Sin is. And like Adam we are destined to die because we have a human nature that like Adam displayed is prone to gratification of self,the flesh.

 

[Magenta]

Why would Adam and Eve die after they fell?

Because that is what God said was the consequence/(wages) of sin. Life is in Him.

Romans 6:23~ The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[lrs68]

Moses probably wrote the Pentateuch. Seems he had plenty of firsthand knowledge directly from God, no?

I think Moses wrote down what God told him to write which is different than the daily accounts of the tedious life Abraham lived or the stories Grandpa Noah shared with his grandson.

 

[Magenta]

the tedious life Abraham lived

Genesis 14

1 In those days Amraphel king of Shinar,a Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of Goiim 2 went to war against Bera king of Sodom, Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar).

3 The latter five came as allies to the Valley of Siddim (that is, the Salt Seab). 4 For twelve years they had been subject to Chedorlaomer, but in the thirteenth year they rebelled.

5 In the fourteenth year, Chedorlaomer and the kings allied with him went out and defeated the Rephaites in Ashteroth-karnaim, the Zuzites in Ham, the Emites in Shaveh-kiriathaim, 6 and the Horites in the area of Mount Seir, as far as El-paran, which is near the desert. 7 Then they turned back to invade En-mishpat (that is, Kadesh), and they conquered the whole territory of the Amalekites, as well as the Amorites who lived in Hazazon-tamar.

8 Then the king of Sodom, the king of Gomorrah, the king of Admah, the king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar) marched out and arrayed themselves for battle in the Valley of Siddimc 9 against Chedorlaomer king of Elam, Tidal king of Goiim, Amraphel king of Shinar, and Arioch king of Ellasar—four kings against five.

Abram Rescues Lot

10 Now the Valley of Siddim was full of tar pits, and as the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, some men fell into the pits, but the survivors fled to the hill country.

11The four kings seized all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah and all their food, and they went on their way. 12They also carried off Abram’s nephew Lot and his possessions, since Lot was living in Sodom.

13 Then an escapee came and reported this to Abram the Hebrew. Now Abram was living near the Oaksd of Mamre the Amorite, a brother of Eshcol and Aner, all of whom were bound by treatye to Abram. 14 And when Abram heard that his relative had been captured, he mobilized the 318 trained men born in his household, and they set out in pursuit as far as Dan.

15 During the night, Abram divided his forces and routed Chedorlaomer’s army, pursuing them as far as Hobah, north of Damascus. 16 He retrieved all the goods, as well as his relative Lot and his possessions, together with the women and the rest of the people.

Melchizedek Blesses Abram
(Psalm 110:1–7; Hebrews 7:1–10)

17 After Abram returned from defeating Chedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley).

18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine—since he was priest of God Most Highf — 19 and he blessed Abram and said:

“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,

Creator of heaven and earth,

20 and blessed be God Most High,

who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”

Then Abram gave Melchizedek a tenth of everything.

21 The king of Sodom said to Abram, “Give me the people, but take the goods for yourself.”

22 But Abram replied to the king of Sodom, “I have raised my hand to the LORD God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, 23 that I will not accept even a thread, or a strap of a sandal, or anything that belongs to you, lest you should say, ‘I have made Abram rich.’ 24 I will accept nothing but what my men have eaten and the share for the men who went with me—Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre. They may take their portion.”

 

[lrs68]

Genesis 14

1 In those days Amraphel king of Shinar,a Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of Goiim 2 went to war against Bera king of Sodom, Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar).

3 The latter five came as allies to the Valley of Siddim (that is, the Salt Seab). 4 For twelve years they had been subject to Chedorlaomer, but in the thirteenth year they rebelled.

5 In the fourteenth year, Chedorlaomer and the kings allied with him went out and defeated the Rephaites in Ashteroth-karnaim, the Zuzites in Ham, the Emites in Shaveh-kiriathaim, 6 and the Horites in the area of Mount Seir, as far as El-paran, which is near the desert. 7 Then they turned back to invade En-mishpat (that is, Kadesh), and they conquered the whole territory of the Amalekites, as well as the Amorites who lived in Hazazon-tamar.

8 Then the king of Sodom, the king of Gomorrah, the king of Admah, the king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar) marched out and arrayed themselves for battle in the Valley of Siddimc 9 against Chedorlaomer king of Elam, Tidal king of Goiim, Amraphel king of Shinar, and Arioch king of Ellasar—four kings against five.

Abram Rescues Lot

10 Now the Valley of Siddim was full of tar pits, and as the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, some men fell into the pits, but the survivors fled to the hill country.

11The four kings seized all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah and all their food, and they went on their way. 12They also carried off Abram’s nephew Lot and his possessions, since Lot was living in Sodom.

13 Then an escapee came and reported this to Abram the Hebrew. Now Abram was living near the Oaksd of Mamre the Amorite, a brother of Eshcol and Aner, all of whom were bound by treatye to Abram. 14 And when Abram heard that his relative had been captured, he mobilized the 318 trained men born in his household, and they set out in pursuit as far as Dan.

15 During the night, Abram divided his forces and routed Chedorlaomer’s army, pursuing them as far as Hobah, north of Damascus. 16 He retrieved all the goods, as well as his relative Lot and his possessions, together with the women and the rest of the people.

Melchizedek Blesses Abram
(Psalm 110:1–7; Hebrews 7:1–10)

17 After Abram returned from defeating Chedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley).

18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine—since he was priest of God Most Highf — 19 and he blessed Abram and said:

“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,

Creator of heaven and earth,

20 and blessed be God Most High,

who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”

Then Abram gave Melchizedek a tenth of everything.

21 The king of Sodom said to Abram, “Give me the people, but take the goods for yourself.”

22 But Abram replied to the king of Sodom, “I have raised my hand to the LORD God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, 23 that I will not accept even a thread, or a strap of a sandal, or anything that belongs to you, lest you should say, ‘I have made Abram rich.’ 24 I will accept nothing but what my men have eaten and the share for the men who went with me—Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre. They may take their portion.”

Rescuing Lot... Just one event in Abraham's life but the key to this story is meeting Melchizedek and paying Tithes before the Law established it.

 

[Cameron143]

I think Moses wrote down what God told him to write which is different than the daily accounts of the tedious life Abraham lived or the stories Grandpa Noah shared with his grandson.

My only point is that Moses received plenty of revelation directly from God.
Thanks for sharing.

 

[Magenta]

Rescuing Lot... Just one event in Abraham's life but the key to this story is meeting Melchizedek and paying Tithes before the Law established it.

So not tedious.

 

[GWH]

TOJ #67: Many souls are not truth-seekers. [MT 11:15-19//LK 7:31-35] They are deaf toward the truth, so they do not dance with joy at hearing the gospel; and they are hypercritical of GW, although they may be educated (1CR 1:18-25), so they will not learn no matter what teaching method is used. {MT 13:14-15, JN 8:43, 10:25a&26}

This is similar to TOJ #46. Some statements {MT 11:25-26, MK 4:12//LK 10:21} sound as though Jesus or God wanted to prevent people from understanding the gospel, but since God is not tricky (TOJ #29, #30, #44, #53, etc.), we must infer that Jesus was employing irony.

 

[Genez]

Some day read the "chain" of salvation in Rom 8:30! If no one has been elected unto salvation, then no one is saved since no one is justified.

Romans 8:30

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.


Predestined for what?

Ephesians 1:3-5

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love, he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

OT saints were not adopted to sonship.

 

[Cranberry]

TOJ #67: Many souls are not truth-seekers. [MT 11:15-19//LK 7:31-35] They are deaf toward the truth, so they do not dance with joy at hearing the gospel; and they are hypercritical of GW, although they may be educated (1CR 1:18-25), so they will not learn no matter what teaching method is used. {MT 13:14-15, JN 8:43, 10:25a&26}

This is similar to TOJ #46. Some statements {MT 11:25-26, MK 4:12//LK 10:21} sound as though Jesus or God wanted to prevent people from understanding the gospel, but since God is not tricky (TOJ #29, #30, #44, #53, etc.), we must infer that Jesus was employing irony.

I admit that's a new one. Irony.

It's untrue but as far as denying Jesus meant what he taught, it is a new one.

 

[Magenta]

I admit that's a new one. Irony.

It's untrue but as far as denying Jesus meant what he taught, it is a new one.

Denying what Scripture plainly says is not new... GWH is essentially calling Jesus a liar.

At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because
You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little
children. Yes, Father, for this was well-pleasing in Your sight. Matthew 11:25-26

1 Corinthians 1:27-29

 

[Cranberry]

Denying what Scripture plainly says is not new... GWH is essentially calling Jesus a liar.

At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because
You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little
children. Yes, Father, for this was well-pleasing in Your sight. Matthew 11:25-26

1 Corinthians 1:27-29

True. Someone denying the words of Jesus ,calling Jesus a liar, isn't new. However, calling Jesus ministry as employing Irony is a first for me. I've never before read someone accuse that of our Lord.

 

[Genez]

Some people believe Judas was saved even though he never believed, was pronounced unclean, called a devil, and
a son of perdition by Jesus, which means DOOMED to destruction... which Jesus would never say of a child of God.

Don't ask me how they come to such a nonsense conclusion.

Look at the young man in Corinth who was sleeping with his mother. A believer he was.

Look at David, who had Bathsheba's husband murdered after he committed adultery with her.

And... look at the apostle Paul, who returned to the temple for sacrifice, for which God had him come within one inch of being killed.

God saves sinners.

 

[Cranberry]

I think Judas was Saved. I also think we need to remember that Judas was possessed by Satan so to betray Jesus.

I think that explains why Judas hanged himself. Cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree. And his repentance is on record when he went to the temple and returned the silver.

Satan in possessing Judas so that Jesus could be crucified and fulfill his purpose in dying as the unblemished lamb taking the Sins of the world upon Himself actually took the power of death from Satan.

God works all things for His purpose. That's Sovereign Dominion.

That's our Father!