Understanding God’s election

[HeIsHere]

I have not read this entire thread so I'm not sure what you are talking about. I'm certainly not a Calvinist.

I think this thread come down to God doing an internal work on a person (there are varying degrees in this) which is necessary to believe or a fallen person still having the ability to respond to the life giving words of the Gospel message.

The Calvinist John Gill makes this case and has been stated here many times.....

neither indeed can be; without regenerating grace, without the power and Spirit of God, unless it is written upon the heart by the finger of God; for carnal men are dead in sin, and so without strength to obey the law; and besides, the carnal mind, and the law of God, are directly contrary one to another. Where is man's power and free will? no wonder the carnal mind do not stoop to the Gospel of Christ, when it is not, and cannot be subject to the law of God…


All of this is based on presumptions about the nature of fallen man (will, spirit) as making man incapable of responding affirmatively responding to God's Gospel appeal and call.

 

[lrs68]

Those who have been truly humbled by God and live in humility will never make a post that calls another stupid.

 

[HeIsHere]

BUT he may choose to NOT resist the Spirit of the Lord.

Is this an internal work?

 

[rogerg]

BINGO! You have nailed the essence of salvation AND all mankind's desperate need for for Christ. Christ only can save anyone due to his faithful life that he lived unto his Father, his faithful gospel ministry to the lost, his faithful obedience to the Father unto death on the Cross and his resurrection from the dead. So many today forget that Jesus is the Second Man! He is the Last Adam and is EVERYTHING that the first Adam wasn't! Christ accomplished everything, whereas the first Adam brought ruin to himself, to his progeny and indeed to the entire universe, since God must make all things new!

Jesus is given both both these titles for good reason. The title "Last Adam" tells us that no can come after Jesus to do what he ALONE could only do. And the title "Second Man" tells us that the Father never had anyone else in mind to save mankind after Adam sinned. Therefore, there is no one AFTER the first Adam, and there is no one AFTER the last Adam. Christ is ALL! Or stated differently:

Rom 11:36
36 For from him and through him and to him are ALL things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
NIV

If only everyone here truly understood this most profound statement by Paul, we would not be having these kinds of discussions here that we're having.

Thanks Rufus, but apparently, somehow, it is far too confusing for @cv5 to be able comprehend.

 

[Kroogz]

That's ridiculous! I'm not going to spend hours going through the tenets of salvation to answer your question in detail.
Christ as the Savior is the point of the gospel.
Don't bother me any further with these absurd posts.

You answered my question in detail.

 

[Magenta]

Ephesians 4:17-18; Luke 6:43; Jeremiah 10:14 In the futility of their thinking, unbelievers are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. A diseased tree cannot bear good fruit. Every man is senseless and devoid of knowledge.

 

[Magenta]

All of this is based on presumptions about the nature of fallen man (will, spirit) as making man incapable of responding affirmatively responding to God's Gospel appeal and call.

One need not presume anything about the nature of the fallen man when it is so explicitly laid out in Scripture ... articulations which get ignored and denied again and again and again. Only God can cure the nature of the heart of the fallen man but many here refuse to acknowledge that, and instead insist that in that stony heart the truth of God's revealed written word as the seed can take root and produce fruit even though Jesus said that a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. This is why we see them repeatedly denying what Scripture says of the natural man not being good. Scripture also says that the natural man is blinded to the truth of the gospel which he hears as foolishness, and that he is taken captive to the will of the devil...

 

[Rufus]

Ordo salutis according to scripture

1) Faith/Belief placed in Christ Jesus based on life giving message of the Gospel for those who have ears to hear (not an internal supernatural gnosis)

Then

2) regenerated, changed heart, spiritual quickening, redeemed, justified, positionally sanctified


Faith cannot be the antecedent of "that" (Ephesians 2:8)

Heretical to its core. The gift of the Holy Spirit is but a nice ornament? Don't you know that those in the flesh cannot please God? If this true of believers who have the gift of the Spirit, how much more for unbelievers who don't have the gift and yet are expected extricate themselves from their spiritual tombs by the mighty, sovereign power of their own "free" will that is in bondage to everything evil under the sun? You have unregenerate unbelievers leading themselves out of captivity -- just like you must think the ancient Hebrews did when they took charge of their own lives by leading themselves out of their own bondage to the world (Egypt), the flesh (their own sin nature) and the devil (Pharaoh).

 

[cv5]

Thanks Rufus, but apparently, somehow, it is far too confusing for @cv5 to be able comprehend.

Actually its my heresy-proofed helmet that's getting the job done.
Very thickly armored and pretty much impervious to false doctrine getting through.

 

[rogerg]

Actually its my heresy-proofed helmet that's getting the job done.
Very thickly armored and pretty much impervious to false doctrine getting through.

Hmmm. Does it have a warranty? You just might want to take it back in for a tune-up - it ain't working right.

 

[HeIsHere]

Romans 8

Instead of employing eisegesis let us look at the verse in context, is Paul teaching total inability as John Gill and R. C. Sproul would have us believe, no he is not.

The truth is the reality the context of this passage is the sanctification of believers (Romans 6-8), relating to their assurance of salvation from the Holy Spirit and to a proper understanding of their relationship to the law and the flesh.

Paul was not trying to teach total inability in all parts of the unbeliever, just inability in his flesh.

He was helping the believer to understand that salvation is affirmed by a walk following the law of the Spirit (8:1, 2, 4, 5, 9).
If that walk in the Spirit is not seen, but only a walk in the flesh is, there should be no assurance.

Paul is teaching a body of believers about discipleship, not some weird soteriology regarding why man is unable to respond to the Gospel.

 

[Rufus]

Men do not take credit for their salvation for the same reasons the Israelites in Egypt could not take credit for the Passover.

EXACT - SAME - REASONS

More DOUBLESPEAK by the Master of it on this thread. FWT implies everywhere, every time that MAN controls his own "free" will and controls his own eternal destiny. Then how can this not be the case with the Passover, since each and every Hebrew who participated in the ritual freely chose to do so? If those who didn't participate (assuming there were any for the sake of this discussion) would be held accountable for their own "free" will choice, then how is that those who did cannot take credit for making the opposite choice?

 

[Aaron56]

I think this thread come down to God doing an internal work on a person (there are varying degrees in this) which is necessary to believe or a fallen person still having the ability to respond to the life giving words of the Gospel message.

The Calvinist John Gill makes this case and has been stated here many times.....

neither indeed can be; without regenerating grace, without the power and Spirit of God, unless it is written upon the heart by the finger of God; for carnal men are dead in sin, and so without strength to obey the law; and besides, the carnal mind, and the law of God, are directly contrary one to another. Where is man's power and free will? no wonder the carnal mind do not stoop to the Gospel of Christ, when it is not, and cannot be subject to the law of God…


All of this is based on presumptions about the nature of fallen man (will, spirit) as making man incapable of responding affirmatively responding to God's Gospel appeal and call.

Jonny C was heavily influenced by the Age of Reason. As such, his postulates fall flat when examined by the Spirit.

For example: for the man who is lost, it is the spirit of that man that may respond to the spiritual call of the Holy Spirit by refusing to resist the Spirit. In this, it was not the man's volition to be saved... only his decision to discontinue resisting the Spirit. So, man is NOT responsible for his own salvation.

Try this the next time someone claims they are agnostic or atheist. Tell them "No you're not. You know God is real. You just want to keep doing what you're doing knowing that it's wrong." Be careful, you might need a helmet. Some, however, will know the the gig is up hearing an external voice resonate with the one that has been disturbing their spirit. So you might continue with "If you want to connect to the author of your life you'll have to stop resisting Him."

 

[Rufus]

Romans 8

Instead of employing eisegesis let us look at the verse in context, is Paul teaching total inability as John Gill and R. C. Sproul would have us believe, no he is not.

The truth is the reality the context of this passage is the sanctification of believers (Romans 6-8), relating to their assurance of salvation from the Holy Spirit and to a proper understanding of their relationship to the law and the flesh.

Paul was not trying to teach total inability in all parts of the unbeliever, just inability in his flesh.

He was helping the believer to understand that salvation is affirmed by a walk following the law of the Spirit (8:1, 2, 4, 5, 9).
If that walk in the Spirit is not seen, but only a walk in the flesh is, there should be no assurance.

Paul is teaching a body of believers about discipleship, not some weird soteriology regarding why man is unable to respond to the Gospel.

Define "flesh". Are you referring to the skin that covers our bones or something else?

And just what is it specifically that a person's "flesh" cannot do?

And do unbelievers have this this problem with their "flesh" or is this unique to only believers?

 

[lrs68]

The greatest act God institutionalized was making us aware of our need for Him and then letting us respond by using our faith to believe in Him. It's the greatest picture of the heart of God.

 

[rogerg]

You answered my question in detail.

Whatever

 

[Magenta]

Heretical to its core. The gift of the Holy Spirit is but a nice ornament? Don't you know that those in the flesh cannot please God? If this true of believers who have the gift of the Spirit, how much more for unbelievers who don't have the gift and yet are expected extricate themselves from their spiritual tombs by the mighty, sovereign power of their own "free" will that is in bondage to everything evil under the sun? You have unregenerate unbelievers leading themselves out of captivity -- just like you must think the ancient Hebrews did when they took charge of their own lives by leading themselves out of their own bondage to the world (Egypt), the flesh (their own sin nature) and the devil (Pharaoh).

Well she did say that faith was superfluous in our view, which is of course just another lie about what we believe... since being sealed by the Holy Spirit is not something anyone should call superfluous.

 

[Cranberry]

Why are you avoiding the passage in Ephesians 2? And going out of your way not to have to deal with what is written, and the implications of it?

Verses 1-3 are clearly descriptive of unbelievers. And it clearly states in verse 5 that in this estate, God quickens them with Christ. Why is that so hard to admit?

No,we can't undo what God has quickened.

Unless Paul contradicted himself here.

Philippians 1
3I thank my God every time I remember you. 4In every prayer for all of you, I always pray with joy, 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

[Rufus]

When did I say that?

I asked you a question. I did not say you said that. But I asked the question due to your remark that God would be unjust in sending people to hell. So...I asked WHY? How could God be unjust for sending SINNERS to hell? Your remark that God would be unjust for sending innocent people to hell implied that he must sending people to hell who are NOT sinners. In what other way could God be unjust? So...explain yourself and quit complaining about what I didn't say!

 

[Cameron143]

No,we can't undo what God has quickened.

Unless Paul contradicted himself here.

Philippians 1
3I thank my God every time I remember you. 4In every prayer for all of you, I always pray with joy, 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

I appreciate the response, but security wasn't my point, though I believe Christians are secure. Rather I was pointing out that those spoken of were clearly unbelievers that God quickens together with Christ. As unbelievers do not possess faith by definition, regeneration must come before belief.