Understanding God’s election

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Rufus

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ThereRoseaLamb said:
Tricky, tricky!!



Let's try again with our listening ears. I, as in me, did not say that.




God would be unjust for sending innocent people to hell. But that's still not what I said. But you know that. What I said was God did not create a people for hell, He did not choose a people for destruction. Because that would also be unjust.




Let's calm it down a few rpms, lay off the caffeine and discuss like adults. Mkay?
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No, that's not what you said. Go back and read your 7483.

So...explain to me why God would be unjust for leaving many sinners in their sinful states that they enjoy so much? Did he not leave the fallen angels in such a state? How could a loving God do that!? He gave them ZERO change to repent! Was God unfair with them? Didn't he create them, knowing they would fall and equally knowing He would never forgive them!?
 
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lrs68

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Magenta said:
Some came for the wrong reasons... Guess what happened to them.

And then when they left people say, see? you can lose your
salvation... when they were never saved in the first place...
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They didn't come to Jesus but followed what they saw others do who were coming for Jesus.

They did what everyone else was doing because they didn't understand what the others were doing and why they were doing it.
 
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ThereRoseaLamb

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Rufus said:
No, that's not what you said. Go back and read your 7483.
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The whole idea that God not only hates a group of people but will send them to hell through not fault of their own, to me is beyond illogical but more importantly, mocks the character and heart of God.

NOW where did I say God doesn't send sinners to hell??
 
C

Cranberry

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Kroogz said:
It's like oil and water. His Gospel will never mix with any part of the tulip. There will never be unity in this area.......no amount of tears will fix this problem.


1 John 2:19

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

A doctrinally sound church will lose many people.
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No. As Jesus said, of all that the Father gives Him He shall lose none.
 
P

ParticularWife

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Rufus said:
By the way, if go back to 7483 and read your OWN post, you said in part that God would be unjust in sending people to hell for "NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN". So what else was I supposed to infer from your ill-conceived post? How does "no fault of their own" equate to them being sinners!? How are were you not implying that these people that God unjustly sends to hell are innocent?
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As one who rejects the errors of Duty Faith and Duty Atonement, I affirm that God does not condemn any for a lack of ability to believe. Condemnation does not rest on the absence of saving faith—something the natural man is utterly incapable of producing—but rather on mankind's inherent rebellion against the known God. By nature, all men lie under the wrath of God (Ephesians 2:3), a judgment from which only the elect, chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, are delivered (Ephesians 1:4).

The notion of "duty faith" directly contradicts the scriptural truth that faith is the sovereign gift of God, bestowed exclusively upon His elect (Ephesians 2:8-9; Philippians 1:29). The natural man, dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1), has no capacity for spiritual good, let alone the ability to believe unto salvation, apart from the quickening work of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44, 65). To assert that faith is the duty of all men implies a universal capacity and responsibility to believe, a concept utterly foreign to the Word of God. Scripture plainly teaches that many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14); indeed, those who are not Christ’s sheep cannot and will not believe (John 10:26-28).

"Duty atonement," likewise, denies the scriptural doctrine of particular redemption. Christ laid down His life for His sheep and for them alone (John 10:11, 15). His atoning work was not a general provision for all, but a definite and effectual redemption for the elect (Matthew 1:21; Ephesians 5:25). To assert otherwise is to undermine the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice, reducing it to a conditional provision dependent on man’s will. Such a view denies the covenantal particularity of Christ’s work, which secured eternal salvation for His people alone (Hebrews 9:12, 15).

The related error of the "well-meant offer" further misrepresents the character of God and His sovereign purpose in election. Scripture declares that God has a specific love for His elect and has determined to save them alone (Romans 9:13-18; Isaiah 53:11). It is inconsistent with His nature to "offer" salvation universally, expressing a desire to save those whom He has not ordained to life. Such teaching shifts the power of salvation from God to man, distorting the gospel and denying its efficacy as the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16). The gospel call is not a general offer to all, but the means by which God gathers His elect, drawing them by His Spirit and causing them to believe (Acts 13:48; 2 Corinthians 2:15-16).

In these truths, we see the glory of God’s sovereign grace upheld. Faith is not a duty imposed on all, but a gift granted to the elect. Christ’s atonement is not a general provision, but a particular redemption. And the gospel call is not an indiscriminate offer, but an effectual means to gather His chosen. These doctrines safeguard the honor of God and the exclusivity of His saving work in Christ. Let us, therefore, contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3).
 
cv5

cv5

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Cameron143 said:
Where is accepting the gift found in scripture?
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@Cameron143 buddy, you do realize that I have posted this at least a dozen times right?
And what was the response from the Calvinites? Dazed and confused, look the other way, crickets and radio silence.

1Co 2:12
Now we have received, G2983 , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


The KJV translates Strong's G2983 in the following manner: receive (133x), take (106x), have (3x), caught (3x), not translated (1x), miscellaneous (17x).

Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. to take
    1. to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
      1. to take up a thing to be carried
      2. to take upon one's self
*************************************************************************************************************

Aaaannnd here is the OT "complement".
It doesn't get any more clear cut than this.

[2Ki 6:5 KJV]
But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water (invaluable item lost in Jordan river {the river symbolic of sin and death}): and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.

[2Ki 6:6 KJV]
And the ***man of God*** said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick (Branch), and cast [it] in thither; and the iron did swim.

[2Ki 6:7 KJV]
Therefore said (COMMANDED) he (the Man of God aka the God-Man), ***Take [it] up to thee***. And he put out his hand, and took it.
 
C

Cranberry

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lrs68 said:
15 times Jesus told the masses "Come to Me and I will....."

That's a choice those who heard had to make.
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That's the herald as Jesus said.

The leading of God. For those whom the Holy Spirit foreknew.

He also called.

Only those who were led by the working of the Holy Spirit would,could,come.

Why?

We are told this too.

1 Corinthians 2
 
R

Rufus

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ThereRoseaLamb said:
Yes, he would be. You're stepping on the rake again and again. I don't know if you're doing on purpose or you don't understand. You tell me what you don't get about what I did and didn't say.
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But doesn't scripture teach that all men are sinners? So...you need to explain how God would be unjust if he left many to die in their natural born condition of sinfulness. Men are evil by nature, according to scripture. So...if God let them remain in that state that fallen men relish by the way, how would he be unfair? Your objection clearly implies A.) Men aren't sinners or B.) or even though men are sinners God has moral duty to save all or make salvation available to all. So which is it? And if the latter, explain how God is morally obligated to save anyone.
 
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ParticularWife

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Cranberry said:
That's the herald as Jesus said.

The leading of God. For those whom the Holy Spirit foreknew.

He also called.

Only those who were led by the working of the Holy Spirit would,could,come.

Why?

We are told this too.

1 Corinthians 2
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Calls are only for those who have ears to hear. No one calls for a dead man.
 
C

Cranberry

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Cameron143 said:
I appreciate the response, but security wasn't my point, though I believe Christians are secure. Rather I was pointing out that those spoken of were clearly unbelievers that God quickens together with Christ. As unbelievers do not possess faith by definition, regeneration must come before belief.
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We were all unbelievers first.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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cv5 said:
@Cameron143 buddy, you do realize that I have posted this at least a dozen times right?
And what was the response from the Calvinites? Dazed and confused, look the other way, crickets and radio silence.

1Co 2:12
Now we have received, G2983 , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


The KJV translates Strong's G2983 in the following manner: receive (133x), take (106x), have (3x), caught (3x), not translated (1x), miscellaneous (17x).

Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. to take
    1. to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
      1. to take up a thing to be carried
      2. to take upon one's self
*************************************************************************************************************

Aaaannnd here is the OT "complement".
It doesn't get any more clear cut than this.

[2Ki 6:5 KJV]
But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water (invaluable item lost in Jordan river {the river symbolic of sin and death}): and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.

[2Ki 6:6 KJV]
And the ***man of God*** said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick (Branch), and cast [it] in thither; and the iron did swim.

[2Ki 6:7 KJV]
Therefore said (COMMANDED) he (the Man of God aka the God-Man), ***Take [it] up to thee***. And he put out his hand, and took it.
Click to expand...
So when Jesus says in John 20:22 to His disciples to receive the Holy Spirit, what did the disciples need to do in order to receive it?
 
R

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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cv5 said:
Actually its my heresy-proofed helmet that's getting the job done.
Very thickly armored and pretty much impervious to false doctrine getting through.
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What a pity, folks, that we have in our midst a helmet that houses an empty-headed head.
 
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