Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Excellent post! And here's a great text that proves this is the case! Man has indeed lost his ability to turn to God, which means he CANNOT turn from evil! And he cannot because unregenerate humans being darkness themselves (Eph 5:8) love the darkness which why they won't come to the Light (Jn 3:19). IOW, the sons of men love themselves too much to come to God! Didn't Satan love himself above his Creator when he fell which accounts for his pride? He loved his beauty and glory above all else that God had bestowed upon him. And so it is with all the devil's seed! The following passage tells us why the sons of men have "lost the ability to turn to God", as BillyBob has said:
Prov 14:27
27 The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life,
turning a man from the snares of death.
NIV
IOW, turning a man away from sin/evil which is the cause of death! In fact, the godly disposition of the "fear of the Lord" within a person's heart causes godly men to shun evil (Job 1:8; Prov 14:16)! And to shun evil -- to turn from evil -- is precisely to turn to God! It is to turn to the ONLY ONE who is GOOD (Mk 10:18)! It is to turn to the One who is filled with all Goodness -- Great Goodness (Neh 9:25, 35; Ps 31:19; 145:7, etc.)!
But no unregenerate man comes into this world fearing God. Paul makes this abundantly clear in his universal indictment of mankind (Rom 318) in which he sums up his indictment by saying "There is no fear of God in their eyes". But this is a crucial spiritual component to turning to God (repentance)! NO ONE CAN REPENT (or believe!) UNLESS THEY HAVE THE FEAR OF THE LORD WITHIN THEM! So how does anyone repent? By God sovereignly, graciously and mercifully instilling the fear of himself into his elect which he promised to do under the New Covenant (Jer 32:40), so that his NC people would never turn from him! This doubtlessly is linked inextricably to another NC promise wherein God promises his covenant people to give them a new heart and put a new spirit within them (Ezek 36:26).
Therefore, the "fear of the Lord" is a prerequisite to turning TO God and also prevents his people from ever turning away FROM Him after they have turned to Him! These truths are stellar examples of God proactively loving his elect to save them and keep them!
Prov 14:27
27 The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life,
turning a man from the snares of death.
NIV
IOW, turning a man away from sin/evil which is the cause of death! In fact, the godly disposition of the "fear of the Lord" within a person's heart causes godly men to shun evil (Job 1:8; Prov 14:16)! And to shun evil -- to turn from evil -- is precisely to turn to God! It is to turn to the ONLY ONE who is GOOD (Mk 10:18)! It is to turn to the One who is filled with all Goodness -- Great Goodness (Neh 9:25, 35; Ps 31:19; 145:7, etc.)!
But no unregenerate man comes into this world fearing God. Paul makes this abundantly clear in his universal indictment of mankind (Rom 318) in which he sums up his indictment by saying "There is no fear of God in their eyes". But this is a crucial spiritual component to turning to God (repentance)! NO ONE CAN REPENT (or believe!) UNLESS THEY HAVE THE FEAR OF THE LORD WITHIN THEM! So how does anyone repent? By God sovereignly, graciously and mercifully instilling the fear of himself into his elect which he promised to do under the New Covenant (Jer 32:40), so that his NC people would never turn from him! This doubtlessly is linked inextricably to another NC promise wherein God promises his covenant people to give them a new heart and put a new spirit within them (Ezek 36:26).
Therefore, the "fear of the Lord" is a prerequisite to turning TO God and also prevents his people from ever turning away FROM Him after they have turned to Him! These truths are stellar examples of God proactively loving his elect to save them and keep them!
-
1
- Show all
On the other hand, God's love ALWAYS delivers the goods! Didn't He redeem Israel from the clutches of Pharaoh? Didn't he RESCUE them? In your universe that rescue mission was coercive, was it?
Or how about when He rescued Sarah from the evil designs of Ambimelech? Was that coercive too?
Or was the Good Samaritan's love "coercive" when he rescued the "half dead" Jewish crime victim?
And in your second statement I bolded, you presume that you're privileged to know how God's miracles work? Do you understand how God created the entire universe ex nihilo in six days? Or how he parted the Red Sea? Or how he raised Jesus from the dead? Or do you presume to understand how God is three persons, yet at the same time one God!? Then why do you presume that you should know how God gives people new hearts? Why do you presume that you should know how he instills the fear of Himself into people's hearts? Why do you presume that you should be able to know he raises the spiritually dead from their tombs? Or do you think that salvation is purely a natural act that man performs by his "free" will? Do you think nothing supernaturally happens to God's elect when they are raised up?
Or how about when He rescued Sarah from the evil designs of Ambimelech? Was that coercive too?
Or was the Good Samaritan's love "coercive" when he rescued the "half dead" Jewish crime victim?
And in your second statement I bolded, you presume that you're privileged to know how God's miracles work? Do you understand how God created the entire universe ex nihilo in six days? Or how he parted the Red Sea? Or how he raised Jesus from the dead? Or do you presume to understand how God is three persons, yet at the same time one God!? Then why do you presume that you should know how God gives people new hearts? Why do you presume that you should know how he instills the fear of Himself into people's hearts? Why do you presume that you should be able to know he raises the spiritually dead from their tombs? Or do you think that salvation is purely a natural act that man performs by his "free" will? Do you think nothing supernaturally happens to God's elect when they are raised up?
Yes...a "condition" which God unilaterally and unconditionally fulfills under the NC for all his chosen people. The commands in the bible do NOT presuppose fallen man's ability to obey, but do presuppose his moral responsibility to obey. I have proved this already from the Word. The Law of Moses required complete obedience at all times under all circumstances, yet, we have Joshua telling the ancient they they won't be able to keep the law and serve God. So, why did God give the Jew a law he knew fully well they would never be able to keep?
Or why did Jesus command the "adulterous" woman in John 8 to go and "sin no more"? Do you think from that moment on that the woman lived a sinless life?
Why do you believe in a theologically bankrupt, man-centered, man-exalting tradition that has man doing things things that even God Almighty himself cannot do!?
Or why did Jesus command the "adulterous" woman in John 8 to go and "sin no more"? Do you think from that moment on that the woman lived a sinless life?
Why do you believe in a theologically bankrupt, man-centered, man-exalting tradition that has man doing things things that even God Almighty himself cannot do!?
-
1
- Show all
And? Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God... are they not included in the holy holy holy?
Isaiah 9:6-7a Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end.
Isaiah 9:6-7a Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end.
-
1
- Show all
And? Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God... are they not included in the holy holy holy?
Isaiah 9:6-7a Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end.
Isaiah 9:6-7a Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end.
God has always had a people that He chose to be his. This applies to both old/new testaments! According to your statement “not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” is sadly miss-interpreted to mean all mankind, where it should be viewed as those set aside. See scripture below:
Duet 6
6 “For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
Duet 7:9-11
9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations, 10 and repays to their face those who hate him, by destroying them. He will not be slack with one who hates him. He will repay him to his face. 11 You shall therefore be careful to do the commandment and the statutes and the rules that I command you today.
As you can see, He has declared that He has a holy people (set aside) to be his treasured possession. Your "any and all" applies only to them, not the world.
God takes no pleasure in the destruction of any, He is merciful but He is also just!
Duet 6
6 “For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
Duet 7:9-11
9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations, 10 and repays to their face those who hate him, by destroying them. He will not be slack with one who hates him. He will repay him to his face. 11 You shall therefore be careful to do the commandment and the statutes and the rules that I command you today.
As you can see, He has declared that He has a holy people (set aside) to be his treasured possession. Your "any and all" applies only to them, not the world.
God takes no pleasure in the destruction of any, He is merciful but He is also just!
-
2
- Show all