Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

That has no bearing on the point I made. Yes, God has a remnant of His chosen people, saved how??? Romans tells the chosen people they're not saved just because they are the chosen people. And the same goes to YOU. YOU are not more elect that God's chosen people, you are grafted in. If they aren't created saved, YOU aren't.

What an inane argument. No one is "created" saved. We all come into the world "created" IN ADAM! But a great multitude has been predestined for salvation before the world existed. And whoever has been predestined will be effectually called in space and time, and whoever is called, will be justified also in space and time, and whoever is justified will be glorified at the end of the age.

It's a great privilege to give you a biblical bible lesson and not something dreamed up by FWT!

P.S. Romans doesn't tell the Jewish "chosen people" anything, since the epistle was written to Gentile believers. You don't believe in context either, do you?

 

[BillyBob]

You're talking about the actual chosen people, the Jews, and even they aren't chosen unto salvation. YOU are grafted in. You are not more elect than God chosen people and you certainly aren't chosen for salvation.

You are correct. OT people were under the law, I am under grace!
Therefore, If God chose me and Christ died for all my sins, then salvation is mine and will never be taken away!

 

[Rufus]

You are correct. OT people were under the law, I am under grace!
Therefore, If God chose me and Christ died for all my sins, then salvation is mine and will never be taken away!

But the [Jewish] "children of promise" were predestined in eternity unto salvation, right per Rom 9?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I suspect many of us here have forgotten more than you will ever want to know of God's true character.
.

Really??? Then start by showing it. Because your knowledge of God, His character and the Word are pitiful. I've stood at alters watching people come and be saved. I've seen the bonds of sin broken, marriages and families reunited. I've seen the character of God up close and personal, across two countries. I doubt there are many here who have had that experience.

How ironic that what you wrote in your first paragraph is precisely what will happen in the eternal, visible kingdom.

Isa 66:22-24
24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
NIV

You've just shot yourself in the foot. THOSE WHO REBELLED, not those I created to rebel. smh They rebelled by choice, they loved sin more that God and yes, they will go to hell, but they could have chosen differently. God wanted them to choose differently. He was WILLING to SAVE!!

You would be very uncomfortable being among the Redeemed who will always be looking upon the wicked dead!

No I'm not comfortable around people who aren't humble enough to understand that they were once unsaved and an enemy of God and headed for hell. But through the utter grace and mercy of God, came to believe and want to share that GOOD NEWS with the world that they too can be redeemed and free from sin. You didn't win the cosmic lottery, you were a sinner, a reprobate, lost until you believed. Your lack of empathy for the lost, is sickening to me.

You'll probably be virtue -signalling by crying crocodile tears into your beer

I do not drink alcohol of any type, ever, it can lead to a bad testimony.

and pleading to God to be merciful to them -- because after all, Love Rules!

Yes, God says He loves the sinner and came to save them. Pity you don't agree with Him.

And in case you can't notice, the "all" in "all mankind" is being used in the limited sense, since the context demands that the phrase is referring to all REDEEMED mankind and not the damned upon who the Redeemed will be looking.

Yeah no, that's easily debunked with this verse "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

You can't Calvinize that verse.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

You are correct. OT people were under the law, I am under grace!
Therefore, If God chose me and Christ died for all my sins, then salvation is mine and will never be taken away!

God did not choose you above others. You didn't win the cosmic lottery. There's no garden where God says " I love you, I love you not, I love you, I love you not. No such thing. God's chosen people are the Jews and they weren't promised salvation because they were chosen. So you're not more chosen or elect than the Jews, you were not chosen for salvation. God is not Zeus.

 

[BillyBob]

But the [Jewish] "children of promise" were predestined in eternity unto salvation, right per Rom 9?

Rom 9:30

30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

What an inane argument. No one is "created" saved.

Created elect. Chosen for salvation. Won the cosmic lottery. Didn't happen!!

But a great multitude has been predestined for salvation before the world existed.

No, no such thing. Which was my point. The Jews were chosen, they aren't saved simply by being the chosen people. If they aren't, and the Bible says they aren't, YOU aren't !! You are grafted in.

It's a great privilege to give you a biblical bible lesson and not something dreamed up by FWT!

You're not giving anyone a Bible lesson, you're passing on regurgitated false doctrine taught by Calvin, who got it from someone else teaching false doctrine.

P.S. Romans doesn't tell the Jewish "chosen people" anything, since the epistle was written to Gentile believers. You don't believe in context either, do you?

Romans 9, 10, 11 are speaking about the Jewish people!!! Seriously buddy have you ever opened a Bible??! Are you reading it upside down and backwards??!

 

[Rufus]

Really??? Then start by showing it. Because your knowledge of God, His character and the Word are pitiful. I've stood at alters watching people come and be saved. I've seen the bonds of sin broken, marriages and families reunited. I've seen the character of God up close and personal, across two countries. I doubt there are many here who have had that experience.




You've just shot yourself in the foot. THOSE WHO REBELLED, not those I created to rebel. smh They rebelled by choice, they loved sin more that God and yes, they will go to hell, but they could have chosen differently. God wanted them to choose differently. He was WILLING to SAVE!!




No I'm not comfortable around people who aren't humble enough to understand that they were once unsaved and an enemy of God and headed for hell. But through the utter grace and mercy of God, came to believe and want to share that GOOD NEWS with the world that they too can be redeemed and free from sin. You didn't win the cosmic lottery, you were a sinner, a reprobate, lost until you believed. Your lack of empathy for the lost, is sickening to me.



I do not drink alcohol of any type, ever, it can lead to a bad testimony.




Yes, God says He loves the sinner and came to save them. Pity you don't agree with Him.



Yeah no, that's easily debunked with this verse "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

You can't Calvinize that verse.

You have a reading comp problem! The "all" that I said was limited in the context of Isa 65:22-23. So why are you quoting 1Jn 2:2 to show I was wrong about the Isaiah passage! Are you sure you don't drink!?

Also, for your info, I debunked that poor interpretation of 1Jn 2:2 many times. The most recent being on 1/4 -- 6 days ago. You obviously do not know how to exegete scripture. But you're skilled at eisgesis, so I'll have to give you that. You think John is telling his original audience that Christ atoned for the sins of the whole world, which must be Jews + Gentiles, right? Has to be, doesn't it? From a theological standpoint doesn't the world consist of both Jews and Gentiles? If one of these groups are missing from a passage, then a universal sounding term cannot possibly be understood in a distributive sense. Do you agree?

And you keep insisting that Calvinists believe God "created" people for hell. But he no more did that than he created the elect for heaven! He did predestine, however, the eternal destination both groups in eternity. The damned that he predestined he determined to leave them IN ADAM; whereas the elect, he predetermined to take them out of Adam and put them IN the LAST ADAM! So, yes, Calvinists believe that all mankind comes into this world in Adam! But God also sovereignly chose to not leave all mankind in the first Adam, the elect's exit from the first Adam to the Second Man happens in temporal reality. So, stick your inane straw man in your ear already!

 

[Rufus]

Rom 9:30

30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.

But not ALL Israel pursued "a law that would lead to righteousness". If every single OT Jew did that, then there wouldn't be such a thing as OT saints! How could there be? Were the OT saints justified by keeping the law?

 

[brightfame52]

Clay that is on a potters wheel was being formed in time.
Not in eternity.

Dont wink at replying against God, its rebellion

 

[Rufus]

Created elect. Chosen for salvation. Won the cosmic lottery. Didn't happen!!



No, no such thing. Which was my point. The Jews were chosen, they aren't saved simply by being the chosen people. If they aren't, and the Bible says they aren't, YOU aren't !! You are grafted in.




You're not giving anyone a Bible lesson, you're passing on regurgitated false doctrine taught by Calvin, who got it from someone else teaching false doctrine.





Romans 9, 10, 11 are speaking about the Jewish people!!! Seriously buddy have you ever opened a Bible??! Are you reading it upside down and backwards??!

Speaking about someone is not the same thing as speaking to someone! You said earlier that Paul told the Jews! Maybe you should hit the sauce. It might do your gray matter some good!

Also, if you think you're up to the task of refuting my argument for 1Jn 2:2, you can read posts 7115 and 7153 both posted on 1/4.

 

[Genez]

You are the first person I have ever met who didn't know that the God in the Old Testament was the preincarnate Jesus.

It's an honor to meet you because I didn't know people inside the Church wasn't taught this.

Here he was in the OT being called Jehovah....

(keep in mind - God is spirit, not soul)

Yet, the Lord God of Israel in the OT? He professed having a soul!
Always being two natures in union!

​

​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, ​

so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Judges 10:16​

​

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone​

loving violence, his soul certainly hates." Psalms 11:5​

​

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. Moreover, ​

I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you.' I will also ​

walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people." Leviticus 26:10-12​

It was with that very soul that denied himself his right to the powers of Deity.
Powers that were rightfully his own.

And with his soul... entered the human body provided from the womb of Mary to become as a man!.

It was always there buried in the Scriptures waiting to be discovered.

 

[brightfame52]

I read this and I want all who believe God created an elect people and a damned people. It gives a vivid picture of what Calvinsm/Reformed really teaches.

Imagine all the redeemed, unconditionally elected according to Calvinism, are standing on the precipice of hell in which untold billions of people suffer unimaginable, unquenchable, and unparalleled agony and torment. While the elect gaze into the cauldron of hell, one of the unconditionally elect exclaims God is holy. And that proclamation is immediately and worshipfully met by thunderous amens and hallelujahs since, whether redeemed or judged, God’s perfect and unlimited righteousness and holiness are irrefutably evident to all.

Then another of the unconditionally elect, caught up in the moment, resoundingly declares that God is love. An eerie pause follows this declaration. A hollow cavern of silence. A silence not from or awakening calmness, but a silence invoked by an insurmountable contradiction. A silence wherein an attribute of God is suppressed by the conquest of evidence; a silence like never before. It is not one of awe and glorious wonder but one of confusion and demoralization of the elect.

While God clearly dealt with the elect and the damned in holiness, and the elect in love, it is impossible to truthfully say God dealt with the damned, the reprobate, in perfect love, salvific love. Seeking to explain how God is perfect love and yet withholds his salvific love from those he created and predetermined for eternal torment is like trying to explain God as perfect holiness if he did not deal with all people and sin in perfect holiness.
...He may display or withhold exercising his omnipotence based on his moral attributes, but his moral nature of perfect holiness, righteousness, and love is always perfectly present.


Calvin makes God some He is not, He makes false judgments against the character of God. I don't understand how one could claim to know God, yet know nothing of His character at all.

you repliest against God, set in Judgment of God,

 

[Genez]

Dont wink at replying against God, its rebellion

You are now lost as to what was said....

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Speaking about someone is not the same thing as speaking to someone! You said earlier that Paul told the Jews! Maybe you should hit the sauce. It might do your gray matter some good!

Are you trying to be a jerk or does it come naturally? My uncle was a lifelong alcoholic and I don't find your comment funny, at all. In fact it's disgusting.

 

[Genez]

Why would he rescue "them from Nebuchadnezzar" who was ordained of God to punish Israel for their apostasy? But after Babylon fell, didn't God move his "servant" Cyrus' heart to let the captive exiles go free!?

And why would he rescue the Jews from Rome in 70 A.D. after Jesus pronounced judgment upon them, especially in the Mt. Olive Discourse? If he had rescued them, we would not currently be in the "times of the Gentiles", would we?

And I have "snatched" nothing from its context. God did redeem Israel from the Egyptians, didn't he?

Trip over your own shoelaces much?

Suggestion:
Make sense if you want to be listened to.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

you repliest against God, set in Judgment of God,

Exactly, you have nothing to say. You didn't even read it, because you're afraid to answer.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Speaking about someone is not the same thing as speaking to someone!

It's not TO the Gentiles, it's ABOUT the Jews. A book can be written about you but not to you!!

 

[Rufus]

It's not TO the Gentiles, it's ABOUT the Jews. A book can be written about you but not to you!!

But Romans is MORE than a book. It's a LETTER! It's an EPISTLE! So Paul wrote a personal letter having no original audience in mind? He just wrote stuff TO No One? To whom was his letter to be delivered? You need some serious help! Read 1:7 for starters, which Paul starts off with TO.....

 

[Rufus]

Are you trying to be a jerk or does it come naturally? My uncle was a lifelong alcoholic and I don't find your comment funny, at all. In fact it's disgusting.

It's obvious you need something to stimulate the few brain cells you have left. Have you considered medicinal marijuana? You're so shot you don't even realize that Romans is an epistle that Paul did actually address TO a specific audience, i.e. a letter in case you don't know what "epistle" means!