Understanding God’s election
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But just to be a little more specific, I do believe that anyone who calls upon the Lord has been saved, but they are not so
BECAUSE they called upon the name of the Lord. Rather, they were saved because God had elected them to salvation, and
at a time of His choosing, they were saved and made born-again - with their calling upon Him a result of salvation. God's work, not theirs.
BECAUSE they called upon the name of the Lord. Rather, they were saved because God had elected them to salvation, and
at a time of His choosing, they were saved and made born-again - with their calling upon Him a result of salvation. God's work, not theirs.
Jacob stands for Israel and Esau represents Edom.
As I said before, rogerg.
Paul is not talking about individuals but nations and sub-divisions within nations.
Your missing the wider context.
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God does not hate like we hate each other.
God is love and that is the dominating trait that was demonstrated in Christ.
God did not choose Edom but God did choose Israel.
Further on, God chose Judah.
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Romans 10:10
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
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As I said before, rogerg.
Paul is not talking about individuals but nations and sub-divisions within nations.
Your missing the wider context.
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God does not hate like we hate each other.
God is love and that is the dominating trait that was demonstrated in Christ.
God did not choose Edom but God did choose Israel.
Further on, God chose Judah.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 10:10
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
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And you miss the spiritual context- which is the important context.
It is talking about the elect versus the non-elect in the spiritual, not about the temporal within the earthly.
Jacob is symbolic of the elect who will/must become saved; Esau of the non-elect who can never become saved.
[Rom 9:11, 13, 15-16 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. ...
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[Rom 9:23 KJV]
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
It is talking about the elect versus the non-elect in the spiritual, not about the temporal within the earthly.
Jacob is symbolic of the elect who will/must become saved; Esau of the non-elect who can never become saved.
[Rom 9:11, 13, 15-16 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. ...
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[Rom 9:23 KJV]
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Revelation 22:19
And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Be careful, brightfame52, God can erase names from the book of life.
And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Be careful, brightfame52, God can erase names from the book of life.
Before I even knew I had become born again?
Being a Jew at the time.
I had no idea that when I responded positively to a tract, that I had become a new creation in Christ.
Shortly after… God showed me in a dream a place, where ten years later I was to discover, was a Bible college.
When I had that vision/dream? I still considered myself a Jew.
Add to that.
Ten years before finding myself where I was shown?
There was no Bible college.
God sovereignly got me to where He wanted me, having been shown before it existed.
When I had the dream?
I would not choose to attend any Bible college.
At that time, I had a low opinion of the concept of Bible colleges.
God sovereignly made the choice for me.
I then chose to apply myself and to dedicate myself to study and learning.
He chose what I was to choose about.
Being a Jew at the time.
I had no idea that when I responded positively to a tract, that I had become a new creation in Christ.
Shortly after… God showed me in a dream a place, where ten years later I was to discover, was a Bible college.
When I had that vision/dream? I still considered myself a Jew.
Add to that.
Ten years before finding myself where I was shown?
There was no Bible college.
God sovereignly got me to where He wanted me, having been shown before it existed.
When I had the dream?
I would not choose to attend any Bible college.
At that time, I had a low opinion of the concept of Bible colleges.
God sovereignly made the choice for me.
I then chose to apply myself and to dedicate myself to study and learning.
He chose what I was to choose about.
..............Roger and out!You cannot be more mistaken.
Paul is simply discussing why Israel failed.
Think Jews and Gentiles when reading Romans and it seems you still do not understand.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth (Israel), nor of him that runneth (Israel), but of God that sheweth mercy.
The mercy was illustrated in Jesus Christ, IN HIM.
Romans 9:30-31
What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness
that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law (runneth, willeth) that would lead to righteousness did
not succeed in reaching that law.
Please read Romans in the given context.
You must stopeth cherry picking verses.
Paul is simply discussing why Israel failed.
Think Jews and Gentiles when reading Romans and it seems you still do not understand.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth (Israel), nor of him that runneth (Israel), but of God that sheweth mercy.
The mercy was illustrated in Jesus Christ, IN HIM.
Romans 9:30-31
What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness
that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law (runneth, willeth) that would lead to righteousness did
not succeed in reaching that law.
Please read Romans in the given context.
You must stopeth cherry picking verses.
Just a question on the side.
Do Calvinists deny the spiritual gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit.
I read the following on Wiki.
The Protestant Reformation saw the birth of a doctrine of cessationism, especially within Calvinism, that sought
to deny that the gifts of the Holy Spirit persisted beyond the Apostolic Age. (Cessationism versus continuationism)
Do Calvinists deny the spiritual gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit.
I read the following on Wiki.
The Protestant Reformation saw the birth of a doctrine of cessationism, especially within Calvinism, that sought
to deny that the gifts of the Holy Spirit persisted beyond the Apostolic Age. (Cessationism versus continuationism)
Oh, I understand okay.
You think the "righteousness of faith" is referring to the temporal?
That law is the law of Christ regarding His salvation. Observe in the following verses the phrase
"righteousness which is of faith" - that is Christ's righteousness and faith. It is spoken of in terms of salvation - that Christ's righteousness and faith brought salvation. Israel (the Jews), followed after the law of works, and therefore
did not attain any righteousness. Salvation and the spiritual underlie those verses, not the temporal
[Rom 9:30-33 KJV]
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
You think the "righteousness of faith" is referring to the temporal?
That law is the law of Christ regarding His salvation. Observe in the following verses the phrase
"righteousness which is of faith" - that is Christ's righteousness and faith. It is spoken of in terms of salvation - that Christ's righteousness and faith brought salvation. Israel (the Jews), followed after the law of works, and therefore
did not attain any righteousness. Salvation and the spiritual underlie those verses, not the temporal
[Rom 9:30-33 KJV]
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: