Understanding God’s election

[brightfame52]

That is your confession that you have no idea about what you want us to believe.
At least we got that much to explain why you can not explain what you so dogmatically cling to.

Ask God those questions when you stand b4Him in the Day of Judgment

 

[Genez]

It does mean that if I've quoted them correctly. Conversely, just because you say so, doesn't mean I'm wrong.
To the contrary, what it does mean, is that your understanding of the scripture is perverted, and that you take incorrect and wanton liberties with it - changing it into what you'd like it to mean. So, refute those verses if you can. Talk is cheap (it's okay, we already know you can't do it).

As long as you and your buddies do not know what you are talking about, but agree with each other,
You can cuddle up on a cold night and feel safe.

 

[Genez]

It does mean that if I've quoted them correctly. Conversely, just because you say so, doesn't mean I'm wrong.
To the contrary, what it does mean, is that your understanding of the scripture is perverted, and that you take incorrect and wanton liberties with it - changing it into what you'd like it to mean. So, refute those verses if you can. Talk is cheap (it's okay, we already know you can't do it).

Refute what?
The verses?
Or, your understanding of them?

 

[rogerg]

As long as you and your buddies do not know what you are talking about, but agree with each other,
You can cuddle up on a cold night and feel safe.

So, that's a no, you can't refute them? I thought not.

 

[Rufus]

Jesus told Nicodemus that the Holy Spirit is like the wind and blows everywhere (everywhere includes all humans because all humans experience the blowing wind).

Therefore, God makes Himself known to everyone like Romans 1 explains.

But as Romans 1 explains, many will know who God is but choose to deny and reject God. But make no mistake, those people had the same chance to be saved as I did and am saved by God.

So..."everywhere" in your universe = "the wind blows wherever it pleases"? And does "everywhere" also mean that the Son gives life to every single person on the planet, even though the text says that the Son gives life to whoever he pleases? (Jn 5:21), or even though God has mercy and compassion on whoever He pleases (Rom 9:13)?

Also, since "all humans experience blowing wind", and the Holy Spirit blows upon each and every person, then you must logically believe in universal salvation since John 3 clearly teaches that everyone who "experiences" the Holy Spirit is born of the Spirit.

Re Romans 1:18-32: This not dealing with the Gospel, i.e. Special (or divine) revelation. It's dealing with Natural Revelation (the world as we all know it to be), cf. 1:20. God has revealed himself to mankind in three ways: Natural Revelation, Intuitive Revelation and Special Revelation. Just sayin'...

 

[rogerg]

Refute what?
The verses?
Or, your understanding of them?

Both, but support and explain with scripture, not your opinion

 

[Genez]

Both, but support and explain with scripture, not your opinion

Do you know how long it would take to do a good job of explaining such passages?
The fact that you ask the way you do, means you do not.

You want it simple and superficial.

 

[rogerg]

Do you know how long it would take to do a good job of explaining such passages?
The fact that you ask the way you do, means you do not.

You want it simple and superficial.

Refute the verses I posted.

 

[Genez]

Totally wrong again! Certain specific individuals were elected/chosen. The true Church consists of those so chosen - it is not the reverse - that joining the church makes someone elected.

[Col 3:10 - 12 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

[Mar 13:20 KJV] 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

In Eph 1:4, the "us", individuals, were the "chosen"; an "it", which would represent the church, as-in "hath chosen it", isn't in the verse.

[Eph 1:4 KJV] 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


[2Th 2:13 KJV] 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

I will break it down one piece at a time...

Why were we specifically "chosen" in Him?

Not... simply chosen by God?

 

[rogerg]

Why were we "chosen" in Him?

Not... simply chosen?

Because He is the Savior.
And you're asking, not refuting

 

[Genez]

Because He is the Savior.
And you're asking, not refuting

That was not an answer to a specific way I worded it.
For the Word itself was being specific when it said chosen IN Him.

There is a reason for that.

Jesus is the Savior of the whole world. Not just the church.
For example: Moses is not the Church.

 

[rogerg]

That was not an answer to a specific way I worded it.
For the Word itself was being specific when it said chosen IN Him.

There is a reason for that.

Jesus is the Savior of the whole world. Not just the church.

Oh my! No, He isn't. He is the Savior only to those who become saved because they were elected to, and become, saved in Christ.
Savior means that He saves. For those who do not become saved, He obviously wasn't their Savior. It's pretty simple.
How does this relate to the church being the elect? You're trying to change the subject.

 

[Rufus]

Exactly. Can a leopard change his spots, or an Ethiopian the colour of his skin?

Can a bad tree bring forth good fruit? Free willers say yes. Scripture says no.

From: John 8:34; 2 Peter 2:19a; Galatians 4:8; Romans 7:14; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:6 “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.” They are slaves of corruption. When you did not know God, you
were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. You were of the flesh, sold under sin. We were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Our old self was crucified so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
.

And those passages that you alluded to in your post comport beautifully with the First Principle (Law) of Logic: The Law of Identity, which says "A is A and A can never be B". This is why the leopard cannot change its spots or the Ethiopian the color of his skin. No one on this planet has the power (and this includes God!) to change their own essence! Of course, FWs will accuse me of integrating philosophy with divine revelation, as though the Natural Laws of Nature (or Physics) or the Laws of Logic were man's inventions. But neither of these are. Mankind over the centuries has simply discovered and acknowledged the existence and validity of these God-given laws.

Imagine, if you can, what an utterly absurd, insane, chaotic world this would be if God or any of his creatures could change their own nature! Imagine laying down to sleep one night as a human being but only to wake up in the morning as a cow or a chicken or a goat or a cat. Or imagine if God could choose to become an evil entity who would wreak all manner of mischief and evil upon the world.

This is not say, however, that God, as the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-wise Creator, cannot change the nature (essence) of any of his creatures. He most certainly did this with the animal kingdom after the Fall! There were no carnivores on the earth` until after the Fall! Formerly, all animals were herbivores as the earth was not under the curse of sin. Neither will there be any carnivores in the New Order! Or consider the Incarnation of Christ! God could NOT relinquish his divinity to become a man! Instead, he took on a human nature -- to become FULLY God and FULLY man in his Son!

Or consider king Nebuchadnezzar whom God changed into a grass-eating creature 9 (Dan 9:24ff) who was so radically changed he was not fit to dwell with mankind! Talk about radical transformation! All these examples validate scripture and the above mentioned law of logic.

But FWs, in this regard, are in complete denial of Divine Revelation, Natural Revelation and the Laws of Logic! Talk about accomplished strike out artists!

 

[Genez]

Oh my! No, He isn't. He is the Savior only to those who become saved because they were elected to, and become, saved in Christ.
Savior means that He saves. For those who do not become saved, He obviously wasn't their Savior. It's pretty simple.
How does this relate to the church being the elect? You're trying to change the subject.

You are showing us your inability to concentrate on the details.
Can you answer correctly, please?

We all must face this kind of training if we are going to advance in understanding.

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For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless ​

in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, ​

in accordance with his pleasure and will— ​

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Ephesians 1:4-5​

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Note... What it does not say.

For he chose all believers in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

But, it does say...

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

"Us." Only the Church was chosen to become the Bride of Christ.
Not all believers throughout history were chosen in Him, though saved for eternity.

 

[Genez]

Exactly. Can a leopard change his spots, or an Ethiopian the colour of his skin?

Can a bad tree bring forth good fruit? Free willers say yes. Scripture says no.

Can a Calvinist stop being a slave to TULIP?

 

[Rufus]

Genez said:


Why were we "chosen" in Him?

Not... simply chosen?

Because all of us are born in the [first] Adam! Therefore, to be chosen "in Him" (the Last Adam) is to be taken out of the first Adam. Christians are not in two Adams!

 

[rogerg]

"Us." Only the Church was chosen to become the Bride of Christ.
Not all believers throughout history were chosen in Him, though saved for eternity.

Your assessment of Eph 1:4 is entirely wrong, but nevertheless, and as I posted to you already, "us" doesn't imply "church", an "it" (or similar) could imply that: "us" is a personal possessive pronoun. Where do you find "church" mentioned anywhere in those verses? You are making it up and misrepresenting your assumption as scripture.

 

[Genez]

Because all of us are born in the [first] Adam! Therefore, to be chosen "in Him" (the Last Adam) is to be taken out of the first Adam. Christians are not in two Adams!

Are all believers going to receive a resurrection body, just like the Lord's glorious heavenly body?

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“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, ​

and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking ​

about Christ and the church." Ephesians 5:31-32​

God wants us to understand that.

In Eternity, not all believers were predestined to be born to believe during the Church age!
That means? Not all chosen to become the Church!

Not all believers were Chosen in Him to be resurrected as His Bride!

​

“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother ​

and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” ​

This is a profound mystery—but I am talking ​

about Christ and the church." Ephesians 5:31-32​

​

​

Why must some persist in not understanding what it is telling us?
Is unwavering loyalty to one's church dogma of higher importance?

 

[Genez]

Your assessment of Eph 1:4 is entirely wrong, but nevertheless, and as I posted to you already, "us" doesn't imply "church", an "it" (or similar) could imply that: "us" is a personal possessive pronoun. Where do you find "church" mentioned anywhere in those verses? You are making it up and misrepresenting your assumption as scripture.

Paul was writing to the Church.

For the Church.

Stop playing superficial pseudo-intellectual games with me.

 

[rogerg]

Paul was writing to the Church.

For the Church.

Stop playing superficial pseudo-intellectual games with me.

His salutation was to the saints, not to the church.
The Church is not mentioned, because election is not of nor towards the Church.
If God had wanted Church written, Church would have been written.
You're twisting scripture again. Each and every individual word as written matters. You shouldn't
make assumptions and try to pass them off as scripture.