Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Well, the point of the whole conversation === ALL of them under consideration here and now that we are speaking
of in this moment === all along has been avoided by the other person, and all those questions you claim are being
avoided are mostly avoidance/deflection tactics on the part of the other person who is REFUSING to acknowledge
that creation does not proclaim the gospel. <= the POINT. I see this happening in many other instances also.
Sad but true and pathetic too that people refuse to acknowledge truth.
of in this moment === all along has been avoided by the other person, and all those questions you claim are being
avoided are mostly avoidance/deflection tactics on the part of the other person who is REFUSING to acknowledge
that creation does not proclaim the gospel. <= the POINT. I see this happening in many other instances also.
Sad but true and pathetic too that people refuse to acknowledge truth.
Creation does not proclaim the gospel ….we’ve gone into cryptic mode now ? lol
what’s that mean ? that Jesus didn’t send his chosen apostles to preach the gospel to the world so they could be saved ? And why did Jesus need to be born a man in order to be annointed to preach it ?
can you explain what you mean by “ creation doesn’t proclaim the gospel ? It seems like your saying Jesus didn’t choose men and appoint then to preach the gospel but that can’t be what your saying
“how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord,
and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; ( the apostles )
God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, ( why they were able to do miracles ) and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?”
Hebrews 2:3-4
what’s that mean ? that Jesus didn’t send his chosen apostles to preach the gospel to the world so they could be saved ? And why did Jesus need to be born a man in order to be annointed to preach it ?
can you explain what you mean by “ creation doesn’t proclaim the gospel ? It seems like your saying Jesus didn’t choose men and appoint then to preach the gospel but that can’t be what your saying
“how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord,
and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; ( the apostles )
God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, ( why they were able to do miracles ) and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?”
Hebrews 2:3-4
-
1
- Show all
Oh, my. Is not one of the very pertinent verses under consideration Psalm 19:1??? (I even posted my panel for it late last week!) And what does it say? Here ~The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Okay, so we know there is a God by creation itself, but the sun, the moon, and the stars, the perfection of their movements and placements and the spectacular depth and breadth of creation itself and all the splendour and wonder of nature does not proclaim the gospel. Men are without excuse because they know there is a God, but the truth of this matter is suppressed because men love their sin. Hey, have you read up on the many many many many many many verses I have supplied to you on the natural man yet? As Cameron has said:
See you completely avoided everything I said and went into I don’t even know what you’re saying I mean that honestly .
but this seems pointless you aren’t adressing anything like Cameron just going in another circle that I can’t follow . Probably my just the hillbilly in me sis but I can’t make heads or tails of what you’re saying here . But conversation doesn’t seem to be happening just avoidance and subject change
with all your saying there sis I can’t make any sense of it lol maybe I’m one of those natural people who just had no chance of ever believing . I’m so deep
In now though I’ll stick with biblical things that are plain and easy
but this seems pointless you aren’t adressing anything like Cameron just going in another circle that I can’t follow . Probably my just the hillbilly in me sis but I can’t make heads or tails of what you’re saying here . But conversation doesn’t seem to be happening just avoidance and subject change
with all your saying there sis I can’t make any sense of it lol maybe I’m one of those natural people who just had no chance of ever believing . I’m so deep
In now though I’ll stick with biblical things that are plain and easy
Why wuote what Cameron said it’s irrelevant to what we were discussing between he and I lol .
again we have to hear the gospel to believe it it’s simple. So Jesus sent out his apostles to preach and establish it and even write it down for us . So we can all hear the same message and believe
not sure how another irrelevant comment like “ faith comes from hearing gods word not from knowing Gid exists “ what relevance is there to that who ever said anything g like that ? Lol twilight zone
again we have to hear the gospel to believe it it’s simple. So Jesus sent out his apostles to preach and establish it and even write it down for us . So we can all hear the same message and believe
not sure how another irrelevant comment like “ faith comes from hearing gods word not from knowing Gid exists “ what relevance is there to that who ever said anything g like that ? Lol twilight zone
-
1
- Show all
And that's all there is to it for you. The gospel is preached and people choose to believe or not. And I'm okay with that. But I don't believe this is the totality of what the Bible teaches concerning salvation. Nor do I believe the passages you share come with a choice. In other words, what you present as a choice, I understand as simple declarations of truth.
Let's look at a couple of examples. Mark 16 says he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. For you, the individual hears, believes, is baptized, and is saved. The emphasis in your view is on the actions of the individual. He must hear, he must believe, he must get himself baptized. But if this is the essence of salvation, how can one say that salvation isn't by works? If the individual must do these things in order to be saved, then I don't understand how salvation is by grace and not works.
Now suppose Mark 16 is simply a statement of fact. What occurs in salvation is the working of God. All these things are simply attendant to the activity of God. As God works, one will hear, one will believe, one will be baptized.
This second view allows not only for salvation to be of God and not of works, but also allows for the frailty of the fallen natural man to be overcome.
Let's look at a couple of examples. Mark 16 says he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. For you, the individual hears, believes, is baptized, and is saved. The emphasis in your view is on the actions of the individual. He must hear, he must believe, he must get himself baptized. But if this is the essence of salvation, how can one say that salvation isn't by works? If the individual must do these things in order to be saved, then I don't understand how salvation is by grace and not works.
Now suppose Mark 16 is simply a statement of fact. What occurs in salvation is the working of God. All these things are simply attendant to the activity of God. As God works, one will hear, one will believe, one will be baptized.
This second view allows not only for salvation to be of God and not of works, but also allows for the frailty of the fallen natural man to be overcome.
“And that's all there is to it for you. The gospel is preached and people choose to believe or not. “
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
uh huh faith is simple like that two people can be standing with Jesus one can choose to pay attention the other can be distracted , busy with other more important things to them and choose not to listen to him
“And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.
But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: but one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.”
Luke 10:39-42 KJV
It wasn’t because Jesus gave Mary ears to hear and not Martha it was because Mary chose to sit and listen to her lords true word. Jesus didn’t make Martha incapable and Mary capable .
Martha was stressed and busy and hurrying to serve everyone , maybe she had forgotten Jesus fed thousands with practically nothing but it’s not because Jesus chose Mary to hear him and not Martha it’s because of thier choice when he came near them one listen and heard his word the other complained about her lazy sister not Gods doing or lack of doing
It’s like you can’t get past basic principles
“Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”
Isaiah 55:6-7 KJV
you can’t acknolwedge the what we need to do part . We have to hear and then heed the lords word brother there’s no other way to be saved
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
uh huh faith is simple like that two people can be standing with Jesus one can choose to pay attention the other can be distracted , busy with other more important things to them and choose not to listen to him
“And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.
But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: but one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.”
Luke 10:39-42 KJV
It wasn’t because Jesus gave Mary ears to hear and not Martha it was because Mary chose to sit and listen to her lords true word. Jesus didn’t make Martha incapable and Mary capable .
Martha was stressed and busy and hurrying to serve everyone , maybe she had forgotten Jesus fed thousands with practically nothing but it’s not because Jesus chose Mary to hear him and not Martha it’s because of thier choice when he came near them one listen and heard his word the other complained about her lazy sister not Gods doing or lack of doing
It’s like you can’t get past basic principles
“Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”
Isaiah 55:6-7 KJV
you can’t acknolwedge the what we need to do part . We have to hear and then heed the lords word brother there’s no other way to be saved
The story with Mary and Martha is not about salvation. Neither is the passage in Isaiah. If they are returning, they must have first turned.
And as far as salvation goes, I will not acknowledge man's part in it. We are not saved by works. If an individual is responsible for his part, how is salvation by grace and not of works?
And as far as salvation goes, I will not acknowledge man's part in it. We are not saved by works. If an individual is responsible for his part, how is salvation by grace and not of works?
“If an individual is responsible for his part, how is salvation by grace and not of works?”
Do you believe this is a false understanding of forgivness in Christ ? Not before Christ but in him?
“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
Or do you believe it’s the truth ? I’m asking a simple question not for you to explain that’s a work not faith but I’m just asking you straight forward . Is this true ?
“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
Mark 11:25-26 KJV
is this true for believers in Jesus ? Or should we try to find a verse from paul to make it seem not true anymore ?
Do you believe this is a false understanding of forgivness in Christ ? Not before Christ but in him?
“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
Or do you believe it’s the truth ? I’m asking a simple question not for you to explain that’s a work not faith but I’m just asking you straight forward . Is this true ?
“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
Mark 11:25-26 KJV
is this true for believers in Jesus ? Or should we try to find a verse from paul to make it seem not true anymore ?
Look closely brother at this dynamic
You say “I will not acknowledge man's part in it. “
Jesus says
“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
you’re missing the boat because your a teacher and not a disciple and student of the Lord. You’re sort of like martha , too busy telling everyone it’s not true to sit and listen to Jesus and what he’s saying brother .
“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
Luke 13:3 KJV
a you are responding to what Jesus taught with “ no no I won’t acknolwedge it “ hes telling us all the same things but we all won’t stop what we think we are saying and doing for others and him ….to actually hear what he’s saying tonus all the same
You say “I will not acknowledge man's part in it. “
Jesus says
“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
you’re missing the boat because your a teacher and not a disciple and student of the Lord. You’re sort of like martha , too busy telling everyone it’s not true to sit and listen to Jesus and what he’s saying brother .
“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
Luke 13:3 KJV
a you are responding to what Jesus taught with “ no no I won’t acknolwedge it “ hes telling us all the same things but we all won’t stop what we think we are saying and doing for others and him ….to actually hear what he’s saying tonus all the same
No one is in Christ until we hear the gospel and believe and receive the spirit and then the doctrine begins applying to us we’re on Christ at that point and would want to go get baptized in his name for remission of sins ( because we heard the doctrine and believe it we then would act in faith ) because we are believers in Jesus .
look brother my belief is if I could simplify it. Mankind is all lost to death in the ot because of this conclusion of the law and all living souls
“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
Ezekiel 18:4 KJV
But God loves us and has given us his promise of mercy not only israel who was bound to death by the law but all mankind all souls he’s offered the same gift of life and salvation . But we do have agency on earth and we do make our choices and reap our consequences brother it’s just the truth
“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.”
Galatians 6:7-10 KJV
look brother my belief is if I could simplify it. Mankind is all lost to death in the ot because of this conclusion of the law and all living souls
“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
Ezekiel 18:4 KJV
But God loves us and has given us his promise of mercy not only israel who was bound to death by the law but all mankind all souls he’s offered the same gift of life and salvation . But we do have agency on earth and we do make our choices and reap our consequences brother it’s just the truth
“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.”
Galatians 6:7-10 KJV