Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

2 Corinthians 4:16-18 ~ We do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, yet our inner self is being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary affliction is producing for us an eternal glory that is far beyond comparison. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

 

[Rufus]

@Rufus



Thats because your logic is governed by the flesh, the principles of men, the Gospel is primarily for the conversion of the spiritually alive elect, for their education and conversion. Pauls preaching was to reach the elect that they may obtain a knowledge of their eternal salvation 2 Tim 2:9-10

9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Yes, but that didn't stop him from redeeming the time, taking advantage of every opportunity and preaching the gospel to both Jews and Gentiles, most of whom never embraced the truth. I take it that with your elitist attitude, you don't bother to share the gospel with very many if indeed any people? See 1Cor 9:19!

 

[studier]

Post #9,176 is another example of fallacious argumentation. There's more than one reason @PaulThomson recently opened the issue of logical fallacies. It would be nice if we could do better. We all might learn something.

 

[Magenta]

Post #9,176 is another example of fallacious argumentation. There's more than one reason @PaulThomson
recently opened the issue of logical fallacies. It would be nice if we could do better. We all might learn something.

I take it you do not understand when someone is being facetious?

 

[Rufus]

Thanks. I'll read again after I get these thoughts posted:

One of the issues I’ve had with some re: John 6:44 is this (I’m translating):

John6:44 No [man] [is] able to come toward Me if the Father who sent Me does not draw him, and I will raise him in the last day.

Firstly, what this in essence says:

• If a man comes toward Jesus, then the Father has made him able to come toward Jesus
• There is an equivalency between the Father enabling and the Father drawing
• A Father enabled man is a Father drawn man
  • Jesus will raise the Father enabled/drawn man in the last day

Jesus has not said any man will or will not come to Him. He’s simply said the Father enables/draws a man to come to Jesus and He will raise the Father enabled/drawn man who comes to Him.

If we remain with this understanding and if this understanding is correct, then (while also realizing Jesus was talking at a specific time while He was on the earth) from it I have the following observations:

• The Father may enable/draw no man, one man, many men.
• One or more Father enabled/drawn men may or may not come toward Jesus as they have simply been given the ability to come toward Jesus – they have simply been drawn to come toward Jesus
• If one or more Father enabled/drawn men do come toward Jesus, then Jesus may or may not raise him/them in the last day, because:
  • Another stipulation may or may not be made in addition to the coming of a man toward Jesus
    • This is where the equivalency between coming and belief is considered.
    • As a notation, I've seen times in the Text where it seems the process is established only to see later in other parts of the Text that there is more involved.

So, IMO, if we’re going to build an understanding, then we should build slowly, methodically, carefully. As you have brought into this discussion, some will test our logic.

I just read an article where the author showed how another interpreter had fallen into the “Illicit Conversion Fallacy” in the way he interpreted John6:44. This verse seems simple until it is scrutinized by those trained in reasoning.

If you see any issues in my understanding, please do address them. The goal is to know accurately God’s Word.

NKJ Acts 18:26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.​

​

NKJ Ephesians 5:15 See then that you walk circumspectly-accurately, not as fools but as wise,​

For some odd reason you seem stuck on Jn 6:44-45 as though this is the pivotal verse upon which the entire discourse hinges. I would respectfully suggest that you heed rogerr's advice and observation and understand the passage with Jesus' opening remarks in v.29. The entire chapter is about faith and how the Father efficaciously brings about that faith by giving [many] people to Jesus and drawing them to him as well.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, but that didn't stop him from redeeming the time, taking advantage of every opportunity and preaching the gospel to both Jews and Gentiles, most of whom never embraced the truth. I take it that with your elitist attitude, you don't bother to share the gospel with very many if indeed any people? See 1Cor 9:19!

Now you rabbit trailing

 

[Rufus]

Now you rabbit trailing

But when you quote or cite scripture, you aren't?

Tell us, please: Do you every share the Gospel with anyone apart from seeing a divinely appointed halo resting upon the head upon some prospect?

 

[brightfame52]

But when you quote or cite scripture, you aren't?

Tell us, please: Do you every share the Gospel with anyone apart from seeing a divinely appointed halo resting upon the head upon some prospect?

More rabbit trail

 

[studier]

Jesus and attending Rabbinic School reminds me of many Scriptures including these (since we've been touching on Isaiah). Re: Jesus:

KJV Isaiah 50:4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned.

NKJ Luke 2:42-47 And when He was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem according to the custom of the feast. 43 When they had finished the days, as they returned, the Boy Jesus lingered behind in Jerusalem. And Joseph and His mother did not know it; 44 but supposing Him to have been in the company, they went a day's journey, and sought Him among their relatives and acquaintances. 45 So when they did not find Him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking Him. 46 Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.

Imagine being woken up by God every morning to become one of His learned and by 12 years old sitting among the esteemed professors astonishing them.

Then we come along 2,000 years later and think it easy to read His Word written by men of His culture who walked and talked with Him, and by others including one highly trained in Rabbinic School and in Greek reasoning who's been tasked by our Lord King to integrate cultures.

Humility...

 

[Rufus]

More rabbit trail

I take it by your non-answer that you do await some divine sign before you open your mouth to anyone to share the gospel. I mean...why would you want to waste your valuable, finite time here on earth preaching the gospel to someone who isn't God's elect, right?

 

[studier]

For some odd reason you seem stuck on Jn 6:44-45 as though this is the pivotal verse upon which the entire discourse hinges. I would respectfully suggest that you heed rogerr's advice and observation and understand the passage with Jesus' opening remarks in v.29. The entire chapter is about faith and how the Father efficaciously brings about that faith by giving [many] people to Jesus and drawing them to him as well.

As I recall, you took some positions on these verses and others you correlated to them, which prompted someone to say you were in error and at minimum committing a logical fallacy.

I do appreciate respectful requests, and I am reading @rogerg posts. The tone of some of the recent ones have been refreshing and have raised a few interesting points from Isaiah, seemingly respectfully countered by @PaulThomson. I've read the section of Isaiah and commented on it earlier in this thread (I think??). How Jesus is interpreting Isaiah and applying it in John6 is definitely interesting. Also, it might assist us to know that it looks to me like Hebrew does not have separate words for being taught and learning like Greek does. So, we might also be dealing with some culture-to-culture wording issues.

Re: 6:29 I am aware of it, have dealt with some of the wording issues, and maintain an awareness of the importance of faith as explained in our Scriptures. As I said to you earlier there remains debate re: John6 instructing us re: Come to Christ = Faith vs. Come to Christ + Faith. I retain the viewpoint that potential answers to things like these lie in accurate interpretation based upon more precise translation and correct reasoning (vs. logical fallacies which are many).

 

[studier]

FWIW in studying and teaching topics like faith, salvation, the gospel, eternal security years ago, I landed and encamped on John6 and think Jesus' instruction there is pivotal to these vital issues of our Faith. IMO, something we don't talk about enough is our Father granting/giving us to Jesus Christ and how things like belief and coming to Jesus are accurately correlated to our being granted to Jesus by God our Father. Again IMO, if we want to discuss His sovereignty in our salvation and topics like election we should be focusing here and detailing this chapter of John with every constructive and respectful criticism we can muster.

 

[Rufus]

As I recall, you took some positions on these verses and others you correlated to them, which prompted someone to say you were in error and at minimum committing a logical fallacy.

I do appreciate respectful requests, and I am reading @rogerg posts. The tone of some of the recent ones have been refreshing and have raised a few interesting points from Isaiah, seemingly respectfully countered by @PaulThomson. I've read the section of Isaiah and commented on it earlier in this thread (I think??). How Jesus is interpreting Isaiah and applying it in John6 is definitely interesting. Also, it might assist us to know that it looks to me like Hebrew does not have separate words for being taught and learning like Greek does. So, we might also be dealing with some culture-to-culture wording issues.

Re: 6:29 I am aware of it, have dealt with some of the wording issues, and maintain an awareness of the importance of faith as explained in our Scriptures. As I said to you earlier there remains debate re: John6 instructing us re: Come to Christ = Faith vs. Come to Christ + Faith. I retain the viewpoint that potential answers to things like these lie in accurate interpretation based upon more precise translation and correct reasoning (vs. logical fallacies which are many).

Can anyone truly, sincerely and genuinely "come to Christ" apart from God-given, God-enabled faith, any more than anyone can truly, sincerely and genuinely confess that Jesus is Lord and mean it apart from the enabling power of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:3)?

Second question: Why would the Father feel the need to enable anyone to come to his Son if sinners intrinsically have that kind enabling power with themselves (v. 65)?

Third question: If God truly enables people to come to Jesus in faith, does this kind of enabling power imply a specific saving purpose that God had for such people who were so enabled, or does God just randomly or arbitrarily select such people? And if the latter is true, what is God's purpose in his hit 'n' miss, modest success rate endeavors? Wouldn't it have been better for God, who alleges to be all-powerful, all-wise, all-knowing to sit out man's salvation problems on the sidelines rather than embarrass himself with such modest returns for his efforts? But if the former is true, then can anyone thwart God's purposes (Job 42:2)?

 

[Magenta]

FWIW in studying and teaching topics like faith, salvation, the gospel, eternal security years ago, I landed and encamped on John6 and think Jesus' instruction there is pivotal to these vital issues of our Faith. IMO, something we don't talk about enough is our Father granting/giving us to Jesus Christ and how things like belief and coming to Jesus are accurately correlated to our being granted to Jesus by God our Father. Again IMO, if we want to discuss His sovereignty in our salvation and topics like election we should be focusing here and detailing this chapter of John with every constructive and respectful criticism we can muster.

There are those who claim God is an unjust tyrannical monster if He acts unilaterally,
which they liken to kidnapping people against their will. Some also claim God is unfair
if He does not reveal Himself in exactly the same way to one person as He does to anyone
else, whereas we know from Scripture that God does in actual fact reveal Himself in a number
of ways to different people, and they are not exactly the same from one person to another. So
one really does have to wonder who these people are, and if they are Christians and saved at all,
especially when they make such a big deal of God revealing Himself personally to anyone as if
such a thing were a preposterous idea, when it is in fact God fulfilling His promise as per Scripture.
Then there are those who add to and subtract fro Scripture while claiming they do not.
And many who misrepresent what others believe. Quite the collection of folks here.

 

[brightfame52]

I take it by your non-answer that you do await some divine sign before you open your mouth to anyone to share the gospel. I mean...why would you want to waste your valuable, finite time here on earth preaching the gospel to someone who isn't God's elect, right?

Yeah I do, More rabbit trail

 

[studier]

Can anyone truly, sincerely and genuinely "come to Christ" apart from God-given, God-enabled faith, any more than anyone can truly, sincerely and genuinely confess that Jesus is Lord and mean it apart from the enabling power of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:3)?

I'll answer but will limit the distraction from the actual wording and understanding of John5-6. I've brought up several points in the Text that you have not responded to or have responded to with fallacious arguments.

No offense intended, but I'm used to remaining in textual issues in discussions like these or in researching issues like these. When we move out of the Text under consideration to start dealing with traditions and horizontal proposed ties, it normally just closes down and sidetracks from the textual issues not yet resolved.

I think it clear that you know my answer to this. At this point I see come to Jesus + faith in John6. You see come to Jesus = Faith in John6. And this is clear in your question and in the boldened words you've inserted into your question that are not stated in the Text. I understand your point but am sticking with what the Text tells us as I see it.

Second question: Why would the Father feel the need to enable anyone to come to his Son if sinners intrinsically have that kind enabling power with themselves (v. 65)?

I don't know what you mean by emboldening "feel the need". It's nothing I've referred to.

I have said that since 6:44 speaks of a man not being able if God does not draw him, then God's drawing is also God's enabling. So, I do see that God enables a man to come to Jesus.

But you're also taking this into the realm of intrinsic power in sinners and I don't see this being discussed by Jesus in 6:44. I do see in 6:45 where Jesus bases what He's saying on Isaiah and God teaching and then saying what He does re: men hearing and learning. In these 2 verses apart from loading them with presuppositions, God's drawing/enabling simply looks to be God providing information and in the case of John6 having sent Jesus to personally do the teaching and validate Him in doing great works. An expected Prophet King was not foreign to these people. It seems to me Jesus was an amazing draw, and God saw fit to take care of men's physical needs as part of drawing/enabling them to possibly hear and learn and believe.

I'm going to respectfully pass for now on your 3rd paragraph. I've just answered some of the presuppositions I see there as I begin to read it.

 

[GWH]

Please clarify - are you claiming that saving faith isn't saving after all? And, since God provides/bestows that faith, - does He then do a uturn and take it back?

I am claiming that Jesus and Paul taught that saving faith is persevering faith:

TOJ #60: Stand firm to the end. [MT 10:17-22] This passage teaches the need for perseverance rather than choosing to commit apostasy (Lesson 2). We must accept the risk of being rejected by anti-Christians without letting it quench our enthusiasm {MT 24:13, MK 13:13}. Luke’s wording seems to imply a temporal benefit {LK 21:18-19}. In John’s gospel the need for perseverance (and implicitly the possibility of apostasy) is indicated by the phrase “remain in me” {JN 15:4-10}.

TOP #20: Those who persevere in seeking God’s salvation will receive eternal life. [RM 2:7-8&10, cf. 3:22-24 & 6:23b] Paul explains in detail that seeking to earn salvation by obeying moral law perfectly is impossible, so we should accept God’s plan of salvation (POS) via faith in the Gospel of Christ’s atonement.

TOP #29: The HS’s love while suffering produces perseverance and moral character. [RM 5:3-5] Without God’s love believers would lose hope and fail to keep on believing and developing moral maturity.

TOP #72: Scripture was written to teach us to persevere in the hope of salvation. [RM 15:4-5a] Paul states this truth more fully in 2TM 3:14-17.

TOP #116: Stand firm in doing the Lord’s work. [1CR 15:58 & 16:13] Such perseverance is a major theme in the writings of Paul, always implied and often specified, and so it warrants a second citing in terms of standing firm to augment the mention of persistence in TOP #20 (RM 2:7&10).

TOP #134: Continue to be free of the law by having faith in Christ so that you will not be “alienated” and become “fallen away from grace”. [GL 5:1-5] This indicates the possibility of apostasy or intentionally repudiating saving faith (cf. HB 6:4-6).

TOP #182: Conduct consistent with Christian faith begins with perseverance and spiritual unity. [PHP 1:27-28] This truth is like TOP #155 but combines two main themes in the TOP (cf. #134 & 64).

TOP #200: God’s salvation is conditional upon persevering faith in the Gospel. [COL 1: 22-23, 2TM 2:11-13] These verses are part of the doctrine of perseverance implied by the kerygma, because it is necessary in order to achieve TOP such as #191 & #195 (cf. TOP #182 & 211).

TOP #225: From the beginning God chose to save those who believed the true Gospel and thus received the Spirit who sanctifies them as they persevere in learning GW. [2THS 2:13-17&3:5] Such sanctification involves being encouraged. This teaching adds to #210 by connecting GW and HS to the Gospel truth and persevering sanctification (#211&220).

TOP #234: Christians may abandon their faith or commit apostasy if they are deceived by demons. [1TM 4:1] This is why the need for perseverance is an implicit part of the Gospel (TOP #20, 29, 50, 72, 99, 115, etc.).

 

[studier]

I am claiming that Jesus and Paul taught that saving faith is persevering faith:

Again, just repeating.

But also, will ask you, since some of us have been in John6, what you may see re: faith and/or persevering faith in John6:60-71?

 

[GWH]

Again, just repeating.

But also, will ask you, since some of us have been in John6, what you may see re: faith and/or persevering faith in John6:60-71?

Here is the result of my previous study of the teachings of Jesus:

TOJ #169: Jesus lived in heaven before being born on earth. [JN 3:13] He is “from” heaven {JN 8:23}, thus He has “seen” God the Father {JN 6:46, 62, 8:38} or “knows” Him {JN 7:29, 8:55}. He existed before Abraham {JN 8:58} and before creation {JN 17:5&24, also see 16:28}. This TOJ indicates that God’s Triune relationship with Believers is somehow an eternal relationship within Himself as well. The “somehow” of this doctrine is incomprehensible, but let anyone who tries to explain God’s “threeness” be sure to preserve His oneness (Lesson 1; cf. TOJ #167 & #192).

TOJ #170: God loves all souls. [JN 3:16a] Therefore, God wants all to be saved or to accept Jesus. {JN 6:37&39-40} Although God’s love was implicit in the synoptic gospels (especially TOJ #14, 29, 30, 106, 113 & 129), John’s gospel makes it explicit. In John’s first epistle (4:7), he says that God is love and that God first loved us (4:19), which means that God is the source of love and that love manifests the Spirit of God (JN 13:35). Atheists can only imitate true/God’s love, since they do not love truth/GW. (See the next TOJ.) God demonstrated His love most fully through Jesus’ atonement (RM 5:8), which allows repentant sinners to be “at one” with God (JN 17:22).

TOJ #179: The work/will of God is to believe in His Messiah. [JN 6:29] This verse is very important, because it clarifies that saving Faith (TOJ #49) is prior to working faith (TOJ #51), and we should never reverse them.

TOJ #180: God enables souls to be volitional and loving. [JN 6:44&65] Souls are not able/free to love by themselves apart from the initiating power/love of God (EPH 3:16-20), which Believers reflect (1JN 4:19). Even the ability to work and produce physical goods is given by God (DT 8:17-18).

TOJ #181: Do not stumble because of Christ’s crucifixion. [JN 6:53-58&61] (See TOJ #92.) Just as many Israelites complained at having to eat manna (NM 11:4-6), sophisticates criticize God’s plan of salvation as barbaric (1CR 1:18-25), as though they were not equally in need of its efficacy.

TOJ #182: Words expressing God’s truth are God’s Spirit/Being. [JN 6:63, 14:10] (GW=life/being is another synonymous pairing.) The spiritual realm is an invisible dimension that is partially revealed by right logic (see TOJ #203).

John 6:70 is a statement made by Jesus that is applicable only to that situation rather than a teaching for us to apply generally.

 

[PaulThomson]

So all the verses Jesus actually spoke while on earth about coming to Him apply only to those present? How about other verses He spoke? Were they only for those within earshot?

The meaning of the words someone speaks are what they intend at the time they are speaking. Jesus was speaking in an historical context to real people during actual events.

Jesus may speak those same words to me today through His Word as I read them or remember them. And to me, for whom Jesus is now present only in Spirit, "Come to Me all you who labour" may have a different nuance than they did to the original audience for whom, Jesus was present in flesh. But it is a logical fallacy of presentism to take present meaning of some statement or actions and assume we can overlay those meanings onto events that were happening, and words that were being spoken, two thousand years ago. It's the same mistake people make when they impose our political and moral attitudes to slavery or women's rights onto first century Christians and judge them morally for not holding to the standards we have now.

It is a logical fallacy to assume that Jesus' words to His first century audiences meant exactly the same to them as they do when jesus speaks them to us by His Spirit.

Sometimes, Jesus' words were only for a person in Jesus' day. For instance, Jesus is not commanding you to go and collect a donkey so that He can ride into Jerusalem. Bible verses are not all timelessly true metaphysical propositions that we can take and literally apply to all times and all places.