Understanding God’s election

[PaulThomson]

The better question would be: Since so many in the world are unwilling to believe (like the Pharisees in John 5), could this be the reason God, evidently, saw the need to give and draw men to Christ, since all that he gives will come to his Son and his Son will none and he promised to raise them up [to life] on the last day? After all, Jn 6:37 does say in part that "All the Father gives to me WILL come to me..."

Seems to me that Jn 5:40 and 6:37 are great companion verses that at once are contrasting, yet at the same time are paradoxically complementary. Whaddya think?

Now just remember something please, you were the one who brought John 5 into the Bread of Life of Discourse of the next chapter. Since you opened that door, don't be upset with me down the road if I should use any verse from chapter 5 to make and support any argument I make.

Have a good evening, sir....

It's a pretty weak dodge for you to not answer Studier's and pretend to be substituting a better one that presupposes your own position to be true. You have a history of avoiding candidly answering questions. I'm still waiting for your personal explanation of the negative inference fallacy you deny resorting to.

 

[PaulThomson]

The better question would be: Since so many in the world are unwilling to believe (like the Pharisees in John 5), could this be the reason God, evidently, saw the need to give and draw men to Christ, since all that he gives will come to his Son and his Son will none and he promised to raise them up [to life] on the last day? After all, Jn 6:37 does say in part that "All the Father gives to me WILL come to me..."

It says ":Everything (pan: neuter singular) the Father gives Me will come to Me..."
It's unreasonable to claim that "pan" refers only to believers and not to the entire universe, including all believers and all unbelievers, and also the sum of the circumstances that came Jesus' way during His lifetime on earth, which is what pan (everything) would semantically include. It seems you are massaging and limiting the text to make it fit into your preconceptions.

 

[studier]

Everything anyone does is through God-given and God enabled faculties.

I just wanted to say this reminds me of something I heard from Dr. John Lennox. Created in God's image He has given us an ability to control molecular structures in a fashion as He does. When we move an arm for instance, we are doing just that. We take way too much for granted.

 

[PaulThomson]

If one or more Father enabled/drawn men do come toward Jesus, then Jesus may or may not raise him/them in the last day, because:

I think that any man drawn by the Father will definitely be raised on the last day, since "I will raise Him up" is future indicative tense. But I also believe all men will be raised up at the last day: the righteous at the beginning of the last 1000 years, and the condemned at the end of the last 1000 years - a day with the Lord being as 1000 years. And the universe (All things) will also be destroyed and raised up/recreated, at the end of the last 1000 years.

The reason it required the Father to draw men to Jesus was IMO because Jesus, without the Father working through Him to say and do remarkable things, was without form of comeliness that anyone would desire Him. It was the controversial deeds and words of Jesus fiven Him by the Father that attracted people's attention and drew them to come and watch and listen more attentively to Him.

I think this drawing process changed after the death and resurrection of Messiah, and Jesus began to draw people to Himself by working miracles and speaking through His church. "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men to Myself."

 

[brightfame52]

@GWH

Yes, all folks are created in God's image,

What about Seth, whose image was he according to Gen 5:1-3

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

 

[rogerg]

The text does not indicate at which stage the taught become "your children": whether they become "your children" as a result of being taught, or whether they were taught because they were already "your children. So, it is unsound to insist that only those who are already "your children" will be taught. All we know is that those who are "your children" were taught. We don't know whether those who were not "your children" were taught as well.

You read it like that because you are imposing LOUPI onto the text, rather than drawing from the text exactly what it says and preserving the logical limitations of the language used. Until you can set aside your LOUPI presuppositions before approaching the text, you will only be able to see LOUPI-conforming doctrines in the text.

Unsaved, natural man -those not His children - cannot know the things of the Spirit and therefore cannot be taught in order to become His children. Only those whom God had adopted as His children, can learn in order to come to Jesus. This is made clear in the following verses - that unsaved man cannot know the things of God - the spiritual things of God - unless they are of those whom God had chosen to salvation. This works in conjunction with Jhn 6:45

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

At this point, I think we've pretty much beaten this subject to death.

 

[studier]

I think that any man drawn by the Father will definitely be raised on the last day, since "I will raise Him up" is future indicative tense. But I also believe all men will be raised up at the last day: the righteous at the beginning of the last 1000 years, and the condemned at the end of the last 1000 years - a day with the Lord being as 1000 years. And the universe (All things) will also be destroyed and raised up/recreated, at the end of the last 1000 years.

The reason it required the Father to draw men to Jesus was IMO because Jesus, without the Father working through Him to say and do remarkable things, was without form of comeliness that anyone would desire Him. It was the controversial deeds and words of Jesus fiven Him by the Father that attracted people's attention and drew them to come and watch and listen more attentively to Him.

I think this drawing process changed after the death and resurrection of Messiah, and Jesus began to draw people to Himself by working miracles and speaking through His church. "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men to Myself."

Thanks for this. I'll have to think through it. You may have gathered that I'm rethinking some of my previous understandings. The Come + Faith issue being my main rethinking. I seem to recall you taking this view some time ago and my not being able to accept it then.

Apart from getting into specific eschatology, I think we agree on the resurrection of all men, so I do see that point. I also have John12 in the back of my mind while working through J5-6 again and attempting to both stay in the moment of those chapters and get the general principles still applicable (which I think you and @Cameron143 are discussing).

I think my question I'd have to think through (I have some distractions this a.m.) is related to what was going on at that time in regard to the drawing by the Father (which for one thing is different post resurrection in that Jesus is doing the drawing) and the raising. It may be a simple grasp, but I'm not focused at the moment. But the gist is that Jesus' ministry was to Israel, so was all Israel being drawn by the Father to come to Jesus? As I said earlier, we can see at least 4 groups He's dealing with in J5-6 and we can see as I recall 4 different responses. He also sent disciples out to surrounding regions. So, if all were drawn/enabled then all were given opportunity to come + believe and the raising will deal with believers and unbelievers who were all drawn by God the Father and specific to Jesus' time on earth.

Hope this makes sense. If not, then I'll try to do better later.

 

[GWH]

@GWH



What about Seth, whose image was he according to Gen 5:1-3

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

Logically, because Adam & Eve were created in the image of God, then all of their descendants share that spiritual trait unless you can cite Scripture (especially NT) clearly denying that understanding.