Understanding God’s election

[PaulThomson]

The New Covenant was instituted and ratified at the Cross -- all of which occurred in the Land and hundreds of years after the exile.

12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

13 Thus saith the Lord God; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:

14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord God.

15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord God.

When did the land of Israel stop bereaving men and the tribes in her? When did men stop listening to the shame of the heathen in the land of Israel? When did the land of Israel cease bearing the reproach of the people? When did the land of Israel cease to cause their tribes to fall any more.

I say, "Not yet." But it will happen when Christ returns with His saints and sets apart the Land of Israel from everything and everyone profane that survives His coming.

So, Ez. 36 fits my eschatology, but you have not shown that it fits yours. Are you going to explain how it does? Or will you try to deflect by throwing another dozen different random verses at the problem while leaving Ez. 36 unaccounted for?

 

[GWH]

Hardly. You understood. How else would I be confident that you could fish. The main reason I responded to your post was that you stated you found the book of Revelation to be difficult to understand. I hear this comment often. One that I have voiced before, until someone tIaught me how it is to be understood. That's what I was passing on to you.

I would venture that if we all took an IQ test, most people here would score higher than I would. That's why I ask lots of questions. But people on forums have become very jaded, and believe there is some devious ulterior motive in asking questions.

You have made it known that you believe the exchange of ideas should promote unity, but your manner of discourse often has the opposite effect. You are not alone as this is true of us all. But if you are going to make it a point of emphasis, alot of humility can't hurt.

You was, but now you isn't.

I don't know about IQ, but my B+-A- average in school took a lot of work in courses requiring memory, especially HS math and history.

Yes, my main goal is unity and harmony (two goals?), so maybe you could try teaching me how to improve by discourse manner?

(Assuming I have enough humility :^)

 

[studier]

What in the world are you talking about!?

Men in spiritual death.

 

[Rufus]

What does Christian mean? Someone who believes in Christ.

Act 11:26
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

That's a pretty flimsy definition of "Christian". Many believe "in God" or "in Christ". Even the demons do! Does that make them "Christian"? Was Abraham justified by faith because he believed "in God" or because he believed God?

 

[Rufus]

Men in spiritual death.

Okay...so what about them?

 

[Rufus]

12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

13 Thus saith the Lord God; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:

14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord God.

15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord God.

When did the land of Israel stop bereaving men and the tribes in her? When did men stop listening to the shame of the heathen in the land of Israel? When did the land of Israel cease bearing the reproach of the people? When did the land of Israel cease to cause their tribes to fall any more.

I say, "Not yet." But it will happen when Christ returns with His saints and sets apart the Land of Israel from everything and everyone profane that survives His coming.

So, Ez. 36 fits my eschatology, but you have not shown that it fits yours. Are you going to explain how it does? Or will you try to deflect by throwing another dozen different random verses at the problem while leaving Ez. 36 unaccounted for?

Of course, the passage fits my eschatology. The prophecy began to be fulfilled when the Jews returned the Land. The promises of a new heart, New Spirit that would indwell his people, etc. was all fulfilled at Pentecost. Furthermore, the original audience would have understood the prophecy as predicting a near term restoration to the land -- and not as something thousands of years in their future. After all, the Jews knew Jeremiah's prophecy and that their exile would end in the short term -- i.e. after 70 years of captivity.

And one other thing: Ezek 37 is the reason why Jesus chided Nicodemus in John 3 for not knowing the rebirth prophecy for Israel in this Ezek chapter, which means Jesus clearly implied that Ezek 37 applied to all Jews during his day. There is no other passage like it in the OT. And besides, Ezekiel is filled with graphic, pictorial illustrations/symbols of spiritual truth throughout the book.

 

[studier]

Okay...so what about them?

You know what about them. Your version vs. the Biblical version.

 

[Rufus]

You know what about them. Your version vs. the Biblical version.

My version is the biblical version. Spiritual Death = Separation from the Spirit of Life -- from the Author of Life. Spiritual Death is to be in Adam instead of in Christ.

 

[PaulThomson]

That's a pretty flimsy definition of "Christian". Many believe "in God" or "in Christ". Even the demons do! Does that make them "Christian"? Was Abraham justified by faith because he believed "in God" or because he believed God?

No demon believes into or in Christ. Where does scripture say demons believe into or in Christ ? Scripture does say that demons are monotheistic.

Jas 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

I look forward to your posting your scriptures that support your clim that demons believe into or in Christ. But I am not holding my breath.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

13 Thus saith the Lord God; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:

14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord God.

15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord God.

When did the land of Israel stop bereaving men and the tribes in her? When did men stop listening to the shame of the heathen in the land of Israel? When did the land of Israel cease bearing the reproach of the people? When did the land of Israel cease to cause their tribes to fall any more?

I say, "Not yet." But it will happen when Christ returns with His saints and sets apart the Land of Israel from everything and everyone profane that survives His coming.

Of course, the passage fits my eschatology. The prophecy began to be fulfilled when the Jews returned the Land. The promises of a new heart, New Spirit that would indwell his people, etc. was all fulfilled at Pentecost. Furthermore, the original audience would have understood the prophecy as predicting a near term restoration to the land -- and not as something thousands of years in their future. After all, the Jews knew Jeremiah's prophecy and that their exile would end in the short term -- i.e. after 70 years of captivity.

You side-stepped every question I posed for you, and merely made a series of unrelated claims.

When did the land of Israel stop bereaving men and the tribes in her? When did men stop listening to the shame of the heathen in the land of Israel? When did the land of Israel cease bearing the reproach of the people? When did the land of Israel cease to cause their tribes to fall any more?

How did the prophecies of Ez. 36:12-15 "begin to be fulfilled when the jews returned to the land ? People were still dying in the land, and they are still dying in the land even now. Name one person who returned to the land of Israel at the return from Babylon who did not die. When has their been no hearing of the shame of the heathen in the land of Israel until today.

What do you mean, " The prophecy [Ez. 36:12-15] began to be fulfilled when the Jews returned the Land"? It hasn't begun to be fulfilled yet. People are still dying there and the shame of the heathen is still being heard there.

12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.
13 Thus saith the Lord God; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:
14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord God.
15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord God.

 

[PaulThomson]

My version is the biblical version. Spiritual Death = Separation from the Spirit of Life -- from the Author of Life. Spiritual Death is to be in Adam instead of in Christ.

When the spirit of life leaves any man, his body dies. How can any physically alive person at the same time be separated from the spirit of life?

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

How did all the inhabitants of the earth have the spirit of life in them, if they were spiritually dead, and spiritually dead is defined as you define it: "separated from the spirit of life".

Gen 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath/spirit/ruach of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

All sons and daughters of Adam have spirit of life in their blood.

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath/spirit (ruach); so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

 

[Rufus]

No demon believes into or in Christ. Where does scripture say demons believe into or in Christ ? Scripture does say that demons are monotheistic.

Jas 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

I look forward to your posting your scriptures that support your clim that demons believe into or in Christ. But I am not holding my breath.

Believe INTO!??? Are you on the verge of inventing a new school of soteriology?

And of course, the demons believe in God. Haven't they seen him and heard him?

And, yes, they also believe in the Son of God. Read Mark 5 some day.

 

[Rufus]

When the spirit of life leaves any man, his body dies. How can any physically alive person at the same time be separated from the spirit of life?

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

How did all the inhabitants of the earth have the spirit of life in them, if they were spiritually dead, and spiritually dead is defined as you define it: "separated from the spirit of life".

Gen 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath/spirit/ruach of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

All sons and daughters of Adam have spirit of life in their blood.

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath/spirit (ruach); so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Man's soul is not THE SPIRIT of Life. Only the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Life (Rom 8:2); for it is He who gives Life (Jn 6:63). Just as man's soul animates his body, so, too, the Spirit of Life animates the soul. What makes Christians alive unto God is the indwelling Spirit of Life within us.

 

[Rufus]

PaulThomson said:
12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

13 Thus saith the Lord God; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:

14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord God.

15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord God.

When did the land of Israel stop bereaving men and the tribes in her? When did men stop listening to the shame of the heathen in the land of Israel? When did the land of Israel cease bearing the reproach of the people? When did the land of Israel cease to cause their tribes to fall any more?

I say, "Not yet." But it will happen when Christ returns with His saints and sets apart the Land of Israel from everything and everyone profane that survives His coming.



You side-stepped every question I posed for you, and merely made a series of unrelated claims.

When did the land of Israel stop bereaving men and the tribes in her? When did men stop listening to the shame of the heathen in the land of Israel? When did the land of Israel cease bearing the reproach of the people? When did the land of Israel cease to cause their tribes to fall any more?

How did the prophecies of Ez. 36:12-15 "begin to be fulfilled when the jews returned to the land ? People were still dying in the land, and they are still dying in the land even now. Name one person who returned to the land of Israel at the return from Babylon who did not die. When has their been no hearing of the shame of the heathen in the land of Israel until today.

What do you mean, " The prophecy [Ez. 36:12-15] began to be fulfilled when the Jews returned the Land"? It hasn't begun to be fulfilled yet. People are still dying there and the shame of the heathen is still being heard there.

12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.
13 Thus saith the Lord God; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:
14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord God.
15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord God.

But my interpretation doesn't present any theological problems as your eschatology does! I've already given several reasons for why I see the prophecy as initially fulfilled when the exiles returned to the land from their captivity. The physical resurrection of mankind is a one-time event that will occur on a particular day, i.e. on "the last day", according to Jesus. But your interpretation requires multiple physical resurrections, since the 1000-year earthly kingdom is not established on the last day.

Anyhow...I'm done with you on Ezek 37. Your wonky eschatology is leading you far astray. I told you earlier that Acts teaches that Jesus must remain in heaven with his Father until the restoration of all things. And the earthly kingdom you cherish so much occurs prior to the "restoration of all things".

Another reason I'm done is because no matter one's eschatology, the irrefutable fact remains that chapters 36 and 37 teach that God unilaterally fulfills the New Covenant, since there are no stipulations in these two chapters for Israel to fulfill. So...if you personally relegate both chapters to future fulfillment, you need to be made aware of the fact that in the eternal order you're going to be a robot.
YOU WILL be doing God's will perfectly because of what He has so sovereignly and graciously done in you. His saving grace truly is effectual! And you should be extremely thankful for that!

 

[PaulThomson]

But my interpretation doesn't present any theological problems as your eschatology does! I've already given several reasons for why I see the prophecy as initially fulfilled when the exiles returned to the land from their captivity. The physical resurrection of mankind is a one-time event that will occur on a particular day, i.e. on "the last day", according to Jesus. But your interpretation requires multiple physical resurrections, since the 1000-year earthly kingdom is not established on the last day.

Anyhow...I'm done with you on Ezek 37. Your wonky eschatology is leading you far astray. I told you earlier that Acts teaches that Jesus must remain in heaven with his Father until the restoration of all things. And the earthly kingdom you cherish so much occurs prior to the "restoration of all things".

Another reason I'm done is because no matter one's eschatology, the irrefutable fact remains that chapters 36 and 37 teach that God unilaterally fulfills the New Covenant, since there are no stipulations in these two chapters for Israel to fulfill. So...if you personally relegate both chapters to future fulfillment, you need to be made aware of the fact that in the eternal order you're going to be a robot.
YOU WILL be doing God's will perfectly because of what He has so sovereignly and graciously done in you. His saving grace truly is effectual! And you should be extremely thankful for that!

And Rufus loses his rag and rage-quits.

 

[PaulThomson]

But your interpretation requires multiple physical resurrections, since the 1000-year earthly kingdom is not established on the last day.

Yes. it is. At rhe beginning of the last 1000 years the first resurrection happens and Christ begins to rule with His saints over the planet. 1000 years with the Lord is as one day.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes. it is. At rhe beginning of the last 1000 years the first resurrection happens and Christ begins to rule with His saints over the planet. 1000 years with the Lord is as one day.

Who's ruling now?