Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

Loving only some of humanity is weak.
Loving everyone including enemies is strong/perfect and what Jesus commanded (Matt. 5:44&48).

Agape love is unconditional and does not show favoritism, but your God personally condemns some souls
to eternal suffering without providing the opportunity to be saved.

God's seeking grace effectuates the opportunity to be saved,
and souls who choose to ignore it reap justice in hell before being destroyed.

As I just posted elsewhere, Colossians 2:6-7 teaches: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].”

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

More gibberish and falsehoods! God's love is conditional!

John 10:17
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again.
NIV

John 14:21
21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
NIV

John 15:10
10 *IF* you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
NIV

John 16:27
27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
NIV

If God's love is unconditional in nature, then the reason behind that love can never be found in any of its objects. Yet, Jesus teaches that God loves precisely because there is reason in his objects. Even Jesus was loved by the Father because of his obedience!

God is not morally obligated to save any of his free moral agents (If he were then He would be saving all the fallen angels!) So, because he never ordained or decreed that all men w/o exception be saved, this does not make him unrighteous or biased. After all, all men are sinners! So...what would be the basis of God's "favoritism"?

 

[BillyBob]

More Calvinistic nonsense. God sovereignly chooses to put a new heart in a man so the man will choose God. And this is putting human will in its proper context. I choose you, so you will choose Me. I don't choose you, so you won't choose Me.

There is nothing good in the natural man! If God did not choose some, none would be saved. Man simply loves the things of this world above all else!

Is it the fact that only some are chosen that upsets you so much?​

Would you rather see none chosen?​

Do you believe that God is unfair, in that He only chooses some?​

Again, what upsets you so much?​

 

[Magenta]

There is nothing good in the natural man! If God did not choose some, none would be saved. Man simply loves the things of this world above all else!

Is it the fact that only some are chosen that upsets you so much?​

Would you rather see none chosen?​

Do you believe that God is unfair, in that He only chooses some?​

Again, what upsets you so much?​

Have you noticed how they hate God's sovereignty? It comes through a lot of these people who want to exalt their will.

They really don't understand that freedom in Christ includes the freeing of the will from being in bondage to Satan and sin.

But then they deny that man is a slave to sin, a lover of darkness, and inherently hostile to God.

They prefer to believe that one who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness will simply choose to believe that which is nonsense.

 

[Magenta]

Psalm 36 verses 1-4 ~ An oracle is in my heart regarding the transgression of the wicked man: There is no fear of God before his eyes. For his eyes are too full of conceit to detect or hate his own sin. The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful; he has ceased to be wise and well-doing. Even on his bed he plots wickedness; he sets himself on a path that is not good; he fails to reject evil.

 

[Magenta]

Luke 18 verses 25-27 (Matthew 19 verses 24-26, Mark 10 verses 25-27) “Indeed, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus said, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

 

[Rufus]

There is nothing good in the natural man! If God did not choose some, none would be saved. Man simply loves the things of this world above all else!

Is it the fact that only some are chosen that upsets you so much?​

Would you rather see none chosen?​

Do you believe that God is unfair, in that He only chooses some?​

Again, what upsets you so much?​

Excellent questions! And I have more, as well. Since all of man's ways are in God's hands, why would any professing Christian here not only wold agree with the doctrine of Irresistible Grace, but would every single day of his life thank God and praise him for such magnificent saving grace but would beg God to give more grace to die to self so that he can live for God's holy and perfect will.

Isa 55:8-11
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
NIV

Those who slander and blaspheme God and reject the efficacy of his grace MUST believe that their thoughts and their ways are actually higher than God's! THEY know better! THEY have a mortal lock on what is righteous and what isn't, and what is fair and what isn't. And this is why haters of this doctrine boast in their mythical "freewill" choices which they believe effectuated their salvation. Deep down in the recesses of their hearts is the sin of pride that they cannot get extricate from their heart. They must find a way to take some credit for their own salvation. And their low-brow WAY is via "freewill". Freewill got them to the place where they are -- so they believe.

But humble, pious, God-fearing, God-loving believers implicitly trust in our Savior to do right by us and to deliver on his promises. We want Him to take full control of our lives. We want Him to direct our steps and take us in His WAY because we know we are helpless -- but this isn't the case with FWers.

Also, note v. 11, which speaks poignantly to the efficacy of God's power/grace. In spite of all God's detractors, within and outside the Church, Gods' will will come to past. His eternal decrees will not return to him void!

 

[Rufus]

I guess you do not know what it means to affirm Scripture truth.

And where did that post say anything about what Jesus did for us?

Oh, you were just being dishonest... I get it ...never mind.

Don't you know that Jesus was badly mistaken? Nothing is impossible for Man. He can raise himself from the dead. He can circumcise his own heart. He can instill the Fear of the Lord into his own heart. He can resist God's grace. He can will himself into the pearly gates.

 

[Jackson129]

Your comments are certainly food for thought , and I can see how you might have come to this conclusion.
However, If Christ receives a person from the father, and He says that He will lose none of them (John 6:39), then isn't salvation for that person a sure thing? Is that not saying that the person will be drawn to God by the work of the Holy Spirit?
I would like to hear your thoughts along this line.

Thanks for the good post!

I will give this my best try. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of all knowledge. Now when Jesus receives a person from the Father perhaps it is because the person has feared the Lord (the Father) repented and came to Christ. When you honor the Son you honor the Father and when you honor the Father you honor the son. So perhaps when you come to faith the Father gives you to the Son. Maybe up until that moment your salvation was in question or doubt. God's grace gave us a way out through Jesus and our having faith in Jesus saves us. We could not have faith without his grace first and we couldn't have faith without hearing. Grace --> hearing --> faith.

 

[Magenta]

Don't you know that Jesus was badly mistaken? Nothing is impossible for Man. He can raise himself from the dead. He can circumcise his own heart. He can instill the Fear of the Lord into his own heart. He can resist God's grace. He can will himself into the pearly gates.

Yeah, it says right there it is impossible with man... and there are so many proof texts, the bad tree being impossible to produce good fruit, the heart being incurably wicked, we could go on an on giving verse after verse, and what do they do? Produce a tradition of man born of philosophical thinking which has zero Scriptural backing, and they think that wipes out the multiple truths of Scripture. Very perplexing.

 

[Rufus]

I will give this my best try. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of all knowledge. Now when Jesus receives a person from the Father perhaps it is because the person has feared the Lord (the Father) repented and came to Christ. When you honor the Son you honor the Father and when you honor the Father you honor the son. So perhaps when you come to faith the Father gives you to the Son. Maybe up until that moment your salvation was in question or doubt. God's grace gave us a way out through Jesus and our having faith in Jesus saves us. We could not have faith without his grace first and we couldn't have faith without hearing. Grace --> hearing --> faith.

If faith precedes coming to the Son, then why does the Father need to give anyone to the Son or draw anyone to the Son? Isn't it more logical and biblical to deduce that all that the Father gives to the Son and draws to the Son will come to Him in faith?

 

[Jackson129]

If faith precedes coming to the Son, then why does the Father need to give anyone to the Son or draw anyone to the Son? Isn't it more logical and biblical to deduce that all that the Father gives to the Son and draws to the Son will come to Him in faith?

Though the trinity the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost are all one in the same head of almighty God. Take me for instance I never went to church never read the Bible then one day got the fear of God put into me. I didn't put it there i can assure you of that. So I repented of my sins to God got a Bible and started reading. Now I pray to Jesus. Do you think it actually matters who I prayed to first? I dont. When you ask why does the Father need to give anyone to the Son or draw them to the Son. He dosent need to do anything hes God. Maybe thats just the way he does it.

 

[GWH]

If faith precedes coming to the Son, then why does the Father need to give anyone to the Son or draw anyone to the Son? Isn't it more logical and biblical to deduce that all that the Father gives to the Son and draws to the Son will come to Him in faith?

If God all that the Father gives/draws to the Son come to Him, logically it is by force rather than in faith.

 

[studier]

So, anyone who takes an oath today on the bible, such as trial witnesses, public officials, etc. are all sinners because they swear an oath to God? Swearing oaths to God is not evil! What is evil is swearing FALSELY! Learn the difference already! If oath-taking were a sin, God would not have permitted the practice under the Old Covenant or the New for that matter. However, since all men are naturally born liars, Jesus' teaching on oaths is understandable. However, pious God-fearing believers did take vows under the New Covenant (Act 18:18; 21:23).

You read the article you posted the link to, correct?

 

[studier]

If God didn't choose anyone to be saved, none would be; for all men naturally hate the God of the bible. Men do not choose what they hate. For example, they will not choose to come to light because they LOVE the darkness. You seem to have a simplistic view of the human will, as though it operates independently of human desires which are driven by ALL 4 human faculties. The human will is not autonomous. It works in conjunction with the intellect, emotions and conscience. The human will is but one piece of the Heart pie!

Mostly more Calvinistic nonsense.

The discussion as far as I'm concerned starts with your initial statement I've highlighted and then goes in a different direction than where your tradition takes it. It involves looking completely at the topic of God electing/choosing and working through all of its mentions and contexts. As does most every topic in the Text.

 

[Rufus]

Though the trinity the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost are all one in the same head of almighty God. Take me for instance I never went to church never read the Bible then one day got the fear of God put into me. I didn't put it there i can assure you of that. So I repented of my sins to God got a Bible and started reading. Now I pray to Jesus. Do you think it actually matters who I prayed to first? I dont. When you ask why does the Father need to give anyone to the Son or draw them to the Son. He dosent need to do anything hes God. Maybe thats just the way he does it.

Jesus would disagree with you. After all, He did say:

John 6:44, 65
44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day....
65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.
NIV

Since God in eternity purposed to save many sinners for his glory, then the Father had to do what Jesus stated, otherwise He would not have achieved his purpose. "No one can" = total lack of spiritual ability which is eminently logical since dead people have no ability to do anything.

 

[studier]

then one day got the fear of God put into me

Care to explain in brief?

Had you ever heard of God before this? Had you ever wondered about His existence?

Had you ever heard of Jesus Christ or anything about Him?

Had you ever known any Christians or known of them?

Had you ever known anything about the Christian "religion" and what Christians seemed to believe?

 

[Rufus]

Mostly more Calvinistic nonsense.

The discussion as far as I'm concerned starts with your initial statement I've highlighted and then goes in a different direction than where your tradition takes it. It involves looking completely at the topic of God electing/choosing and working through all of its mentions and contexts. As does most every topic in the Text.

Give me one text in scripture that teaches that sinners elect God. You seem to think that it wasn't necessary for God in eternity to determine to save a remnant of mankind for himself.

 

[Rufus]

Care to explain in brief?

Had you ever heard of God before this? Had you ever wondered about His existence?

Had you ever heard of Jesus Christ or anything about Him?

Had you ever known any Christians or known of them?

Had you ever known anything about the Christian "religion" and what Christians seemed to believe?

Watch a bunch of drivel! Most in the world could answer "yes" to at least one of those silly questions; yet, they still refuse to believe! So, what is your point? Don't you know it takes a heart transplant to believe the Gospel? And the transplant does far more than make one "capable" of healing. The transplant IS the life-saving CURE!

 

[Rufus]

You read the article you posted the link to, correct?

Yeah, I did. So?

 

[studier]

"No one can" = total lack of spiritual ability which is eminently logical since dead people have no ability to do anything.

You mean dead people as in corpses with no breath and on the slab, in the box, in the grave, in the sea, in the urn, etc.?

Or people walking around living and breathing and thinking and reasoning and making decisions and loving and hating and even thinking about and discussing the God and Creator who implanted knowledge about Himself in them and gave them some understanding of right and wrong and judgment? These dead people?