Understanding God’s election

[lrs68]

2Pet 3:9, to which you are alluding, does NOT say what you claim! You are ignoring the context of the passage. Was the world the original audience to Peter's 2nd Epistle?



Nor does "the scripture reference" teach what you claim, since Peter's original audience were largely messianic Jews. God is patient, therefore, toward them (the "you" in 2Pet 3:9) -- not the world at large.

I said it was to the Jews. Back then they didn't classify as Messianic like we do today. They were simply Jews.

 

[Rufus]

YOUR God "HATES sin and the sinner!"
Not the God I worship.
The wages of the sin of unbelief is hell,
which babies are too young to be able to commit.

Then your own mouth condemns you since you obvious worship a false god! God does hate sin and the sinner! What part of Prov 11:1, 20 don't you get, since sin and sinners in those passages are BOTH abominations to God.

And since you think that little babies are innocent but God ordains their early demise anyway, explain to me how God is just in allowing the very young to die before they attain to the knowledge of good and evil. The wages of sin is DEATH -- all and any sin (Rom 6:23). Why do you think that all of us (even believers!) die physically? So how is it just of God to bring death upon innocent, sinless little children?

 

[BillyBob]

I guess I will throw my 2 cents into this discussion. Now the people who say you have free will to be saved. I can see thier line of reasoning but I can see it has flaws. And not just scripture based flaws.

I belive you have free will on wether or not to have faith in Jesus. But the only reason you have the free will to choose to have faith in Jesus is by the grace of God.

So through grace you are saved by faith. You would simply not even have the choice of faith in Jesus without the grace of God. The grace must come forth first in that equation and it cannot come from a man.

Your comments are certainly food for thought , and I can see how you might have come to this conclusion.
However, If Christ receives a person from the father, and He says that He will lose none of them (John 6:39), then isn't salvation for that person a sure thing? Is that not saying that the person will be drawn to God by the work of the Holy Spirit?
I would like to hear your thoughts along this line.

Thanks for the good post!

 

[Rufus]

I said it was to the Jews. Back then they didn't classify as Messianic like we do today. They were simply Jews.

It was to messianic Jews! Peter wrote to BELIEVING Jews, ergo messianic Jews -- a/k/a God's elect (1Pet 1:1)! So, again... who is the "you" in 2Pet 3:9: Man in the moon, Tooth Fairy, Santa's elves, the entire world...who?

 

[GWH]

Then your own mouth condemns you since you obvious worship a false god! God does hate sin and the sinner! What part of Prov 11:1, 20 don't you get, since sin and sinners in those passages are BOTH abominations to God.

And since you think that little babies are innocent but God ordains their early demise anyway, explain to me how God is just in allowing the very young to die before they attain to the knowledge of good and evil. The wages of sin is DEATH -- all and any sin (Rom 6:23). Why do you think that all of us (even believers!) die physically? So how is it just of God to bring death upon innocent, sinless little children?

I think "God hates all sin but loves all sinners" is the right harmonization of the 7 pearls with the divine hatred Scriptures.

I think God allows/ordains the laws of physics including physical death,
and He also judges justly, so innocent infants do not reap hell.

 

[studier]

The evil one has blinded you by taking your eyes off the real ball

No, I rejected you as the evil one when you told me to do something our Lord said was from the evil one.

The evil one has blinded you by taking your eyes off the real ball (the human heart) and placing it on human will which resides in the human heart. So, now you're fully distracted by a mere component of the human heart! God didn't promise in the New Covenant to get his people a new volition but rather a new heart! Nor did God promise to circumcise the human volition but rather the human heart. Man is not called to fear God in his human volition but in his heart instead. Man is enjoined to believe in Christ not with all human volition but with his heart, etc., etc.

Hard to read through this nonsense.

God convinced me to choose Him. As I cooperate in relationship with Him, He is providing capacity for me to both will and work what pleases Him. That increased capacity has resulted in having a will in my new heart that is hard to contain. My will has grown to more actually desire to be His son in complete/perfect imitation of Him and my first-born brother and Lord. I look forward to being face-to-face with Him more than I can explain. My puny will that He determined was sufficient He has increased immensely. As I said, it's hard to explain, but the spiritually youthful desire in all truth that wasn't a bit fleeting, is now so firmly established that I sincerely understand what Paul voiced later in his life that his real desire was to be elsewhere.

Can you imagine what He saw and thought while here? Over time some of it becomes clearer.

You explain away human will. That's tragic. He honors it and makes it truly something.

 

[studier]

I guess I will throw my 2 cents into this discussion. Now the people who say you have free will to be saved. I can see thier line of reasoning but I can see it has flaws. And not just scripture based flaws.

I belive you have free will on wether or not to have faith in Jesus. But the only reason you have the free will to choose to have faith in Jesus is by the grace of God.

So through grace you are saved by faith. You would simply not even have the choice of faith in Jesus without the grace of God. The grace must come forth first in that equation and it cannot come from a man.

Jesus is the Grace from God. By providing and revealing Him by Grace, He gave us the choice to accept or to reject Him.

 

[Rufus]

Why would God be weak for ordaining the only way to Salvation being through Jesus in the beginning and foundation of the world?

Your god is weak and impotent pathetic, since he merely sits by idly and passively in heaven as a spectator sweating bullets and wringing his hands hoping against all hope that some people will actually believe on his Son. He sits there as a potential savior since you FWers believe that at the end of the day it's man's "freewill" that actually effectuates his salvation. But my God who is the God who has revealed himself in scripture is totally different from yours! For my God is not weak or impotent or passive.

Isa 66:9
9 Do I bring to the moment of birth
and not give delivery ?" says the LORD.
"Do I close up the womb
when I bring to delivery ?" says your God.
NIV

You would have answer "yes" to both of the above rhetorical questions in order to protect and honor your god human volition.

 

[lrs68]

It was to messianic Jews! Peter wrote to BELIEVING Jews, ergo messianic Jews -- a/k/a God's elect (1Pet 1:1)! So, again... who is the "you" in 2Pet 3:9: Man in the moon, Tooth Fairy, Santa's elves, the entire world...who?

The term Messianic Jew is new. You are just being petty.

 

[Rufus]

No, I rejected you as the evil one when you told me to do something our Lord said was from the evil one.



Hard to read through this nonsense.

God convinced me to choose Him. As I cooperate in relationship with Him, He is providing capacity for me to both will and work what pleases Him. That increased capacity has resulted in having a will in my new heart that is hard to contain. My will has grown to more actually desire to be His son in complete/perfect imitation of Him and my first-born brother and Lord. I look forward to being face-to-face with Him more than I can explain. My puny will that He determined was sufficient He has increased immensely. As I said, it's hard to explain, but the spiritually youthful desire in all truth that wasn't a bit fleeting, is now so firmly established that I sincerely understand what Paul voiced later in his life that his real desire was to be elsewhere.

Can you imagine what He saw and thought while here? Over time some of it becomes clearer.

You explain away human will. That's tragic. He honors it and makes it truly something.

I do not explain away human will -- I put human will in its proper context -- the HUMAN HEART! When God sovereignly and freely gives his people a new heart, the end result in guaranteed: FAITH and REPENTANCE which each elect sinner freely chooses to do by the efficacy of that new [circumcised] heart and the power of God's grace.

 

[GWH]

Your god is weak and impotent pathetic, since he merely sits by idly and passively in heaven as a spectator sweating bullets and wringing his hands hoping against all hope that some people will actually believe on his Son. He sits there as a potential savior since you FWers believe that at the end of the day it's man's "freewill" that actually effectuates his salvation. But my God who is the God who has revealed himself in scripture is totally different from yours! For my God is not weak or impotent or passive.

Isa 66:9
9 Do I bring to the moment of birth
and not give delivery ?" says the LORD.
"Do I close up the womb
when I bring to delivery ?" says your God.
NIV

You would have answer "yes" to both of the above rhetorical questions in order to protect and honor your god human volition.

Re "For my God is not weak or impotent or passive.": On the contrary, your God is weak in love, an impotent automaton and impersonal or passive or apathetic with regard to saving the non-elect.

 

[Rufus]

The term Messianic Jew is new. You are just being petty.

Not being petty. I clarified who Peter's recipients are. You merely said Jews -- which could mean unbelieving Jews. The term "trinity" isn't in the bible either and is, therefore, "new". Does this mean that you don't believe that God is Three in One? Or do you believe in the Trinity because the CONCEPT is biblical? So, then, is the concept of "messianic" Jews -- who are genuine believers in the Messiah.

You still haven't answered my question re 2Pet 3:9. Who is the "you" in this text?

 

[Rufus]

Re "For my God is not weak or impotent or passive.": On the contrary, your God is weak in love, an impotent automaton and impersonal or passive or apathetic with regard to saving the non-elect.

No, my God's love is powerful and effectual toward all the elect objects of his love. My God is very personal and active; for true "agape" love is always PROACTIVE! God actively moves to actually save people (not merely tossing them a lifesaver so that they can save themselves). Your god, though, is weak, impotent and passive because his grace is not efficacious -- rather your "freewill" effectuates your salvation.

 

[lrs68]

Not being petty. I clarified who Peter's recipients are. You merely said Jews -- which could mean unbelieving Jews. The term "trinity" isn't in the bible either and is, therefore, "new". Does this mean that you don't believe that God is Three in One? Or do you believe in the Trinity because the CONCEPT is biblical? So, then, is the concept of "messianic" Jews -- who are genuine believers in the Messiah.

You still haven't answered my question re 2Pet 3:9. Who is the "you" in this text?

I believe that if God walked past that even His shadow would represent Him but that doesn't mean the shadow is a person of God.

The same with the spoken words of God or other attributes of God.

But I most definitely believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit of God.


But still 2 Peter is not talking about what the original conversation hinges on. But I agree it's definitely a vital point being made just not as effective as you are attempting to make it.

 

[studier]

I do not explain away human will -- I put human will in its proper context -- the HUMAN HEART! When God sovereignly and freely gives his people a new heart, the end result in guaranteed: FAITH and REPENTANCE which each elect sinner freely chooses to do by the efficacy of that new [circumcised] heart and the power of God's grace.

More Calvinistic nonsense. God sovereignly chooses to put a new heart in a man so the man will choose God. And this is putting human will in its proper context. I choose you, so you will choose Me. I don't choose you, so you won't choose Me.

 

[Rufus]

No, I rejected you as the evil one when you told me to do something our Lord said was from the evil one.

So, anyone who takes an oath today on the bible, such as trial witnesses, public officials, etc. are all sinners because they swear an oath to God? Swearing oaths to God is not evil! What is evil is swearing FALSELY! Learn the difference already! If oath-taking were a sin, God would not have permitted the practice under the Old Covenant or the New for that matter. However, since all men are naturally born liars, Jesus' teaching on oaths is understandable. However, pious God-fearing believers did take vows under the New Covenant (Act 18:18; 21:23).

 

[Rufus]

I believe that if God walked past that even His shadow would represent Him but that doesn't mean the shadow is a person of God.

The same with the spoken words of God or other attributes of God.

But I most definitely believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit of God.


But still 2 Peter is not talking about what the original conversation hinges on. But I agree it's definitely a vital point being made just not as effective as you are attempting to make it.

IOW, you don't have the first clue as to who the "you" is/are in 2Pet 3:9 -- and yet you boldly and confidently and smugly proclaim that Peter was teaching that God is not willing that any [human being] should perish. Maybe you should put that interpretation on hold until you figure out someday the identity of the "you".

 

[GWH]

No, my God's love is powerful and effectual toward all the elect objects of his love. My God is very personal and active; for true "agape" love is always PROACTIVE! God actively moves to actually save people (not merely tossing them a lifesaver so that they can save themselves). Your god, though, is weak, impotent and passive because his grace is not efficacious -- rather your "freewill" effectuates your salvation.

Loving only some of humanity is weak.
Loving everyone including enemies is strong/perfect and what Jesus commanded (Matt. 5:44&48).

Agape love is unconditional and does not show favoritism, but your God personally condemns some souls
to eternal suffering without providing the opportunity to be saved.

God's seeking grace effectuates the opportunity to be saved,
and souls who choose to ignore it reap justice in hell before being destroyed.

As I just posted elsewhere, Colossians 2:6-7 teaches: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].”

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

 

[Magenta]

Interesting redX. I guess Jesus didn't choose to do what He did for us.

I guess you do not know what it means to affirm Scripture truth.

And where did that post say anything about what Jesus did for us?

Oh, you were just being dishonest... I get it ...never mind.

 

[Rufus]

More Calvinistic nonsense. God sovereignly chooses to put a new heart in a man so the man will choose God. And this is putting human will in its proper context. I choose you, so you will choose Me. I don't choose you, so you won't choose Me.

If God didn't choose anyone to be saved, none would be; for all men naturally hate the God of the bible. Men do not choose what they hate. For example, they will not choose to come to light because they LOVE the darkness. You seem to have a simplistic view of the human will, as though it operates independently of human desires which are driven by ALL 4 human faculties. The human will is not autonomous. It works in conjunction with the intellect, emotions and conscience. The human will is but one piece of the Heart pie!