Understanding God’s election

[rogerg]

John 6:37

The truth is, that no man will come to Christ on his own. Turning to Christ will only happen after the HS changes our heart.
Once this happens – yes, we will turn to Christ simply because the Father gave us to Christ, and all who are given to Him will come and will not be cast out. It's really that simple!
You would think that FW'ers would celebrate this truth, but the sad fact is that they feel the need to contribute in some way.
As for me, I accept this free gift with thankfulness and realize that I could never stand before God by my own works.

Great post, @BillyBob, and should any of the FW'ers care to read John 17 closely, fairly, and objectively enough, they will find your conclusion fully corroborated there.

[Jhn 17:2 KJV] 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

 

[Rufus]

Once again, from within the ranks of Calvinism, a commentary on its own:

The Reformed or “Calvinists,” as they are all too frequently identified, have been viewed as pairing almost dualistically “the nothingness of man” with “the overmastering power of God,” and, accordingly, as teaching a fundamentally predestinarian or deterministic theology—whether in utter accord with Calvin's thought or in a further, negative development of it. (p. 21)

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As I said, the shoes fits. And in this diatribe, you're doing at minimum two things; (1) trying to assert that your opponents minimize God's holiness, which is more lightweight tactical garbage, and (2) in another "nothingness of man" blast, negating that man is made in God's image and retains a conscience, some reasoning abilities, knowledge of God's power and divinity, and volition, all of which God knows how to work with to get man's attention to what He's offering.

As I've said, your corpse - now dead dog (amazing) - addiction is stupid. Some within your camp can see the problems it's causing for the camp which you've attempted to isolate from while maintaining its core TULIP. For various reasons it's pretty simple to see why you may well have been banned from some reformed sites.



Yes, I am a huge fan of the Gospel, of our Lord and first-born brother and King, of our Heavenly Father and His Gospel Plan for our Salvation, and of His Spirit and His work among us, and of God's Word which fills my days, etc... Thanks for being able to at least see some truth.

Honestly, I'm not sure where you're getting this new spiel about me talking about freedom. But I'm used to you making things up. As I've said, it's not my norm to even use "free will".

As I've consistently offered you, anytime you think you have and can maintain the focus to go through Scripture in context on most any Biblical point, bring it up, I'll consider it and how you're proposing it, and maybe we can settle in and do some work and see what we all might learn from it.

A quick search in in the NKJ English using the software I've used for decades (concordance and way beyond) shows "free*" (* = wildcard to include all endings) shows 123 hits in 117 verses. Got a favorite? We can invite @GWH to do some harmonizing and anyone else who'd like to join in and be objective (likely better than you can).

Come on Dufus. You keep ignoring when you can't answer actual discussions in Scripture any further and I and others keep letting you off the hook to rabbit-trail into other things. You're a professional arguer who recedes into fallacious tactics when you're [often] cornered.

Are you done with Gen20 & Jer13? Did you not like my rhetorical question about God telling the king he was a dead man being an example of the compatibilism you were asserting. Hey, knucklehead! Wake up! If you don't do what I say, you're dead! OK, sir, right away... Compatibilism.

There's another thread @GWH has been inviting posters to where he's working point by point on this election topic. It looks much more focused and constructive than dealing with your nonsense, which as he's said, is tedious. You're an endless repetitive supplier of stuff (clean version) thrown against the wall for others to clean up.

The much better question is why can't you deal with Gen 20 and Jer 13 honestly!? You still haven't told me what the answer is to the rhetorical question in Jer 13:23a? Is the answer, "yes", "no" or "maybe"? And how would that answer impact the analogy the prophet made between the entities in v. 23a and Israel in part b.?

And why can't you see that God restrained Abimelech's evil heart!?

Gen 20:6-7
6 And God said to him in a dream, "Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her. 7 Now therefore, restore the man's wife; for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you shall live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours."
NKJV

Or per the ESV:

Gen 20:6-7
6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her. 7 Now then, return the man's wife, for he is a prophet, so that he will pray for you, and you shall live. But if you do not return her, know that you shall surely die, you, and all who are yours."
ESV

But you despise the efficacy of God's grace; therefore God likely has judicially blinded your heart to not see the magnificent truth taught in this passage. What you cannot see is that God played a very active role by restraining the king's evil intentions; for in so doing he preserved the integrity of the promise he made to Abraham two chapters earlier wherein he promised the patriarch that Sarah would bear hjm a son, even though Sarah was well beyond child-bearing age and Abraham himself was a good as dead! But even more importantly, the promise in Gen 18 ultimately impacts the promise of the Messiah who would eventually come into this world and through whom all the nations of the earth would be blessed. But all that you can see is the spotless purity of this pagan king's idolatrous heart! The only thing that has surprised me up to this point that you haven't credited Abimilech with being as righteous, pure and holy as Christ himself!

 

[Rufus]

A little more simplicity:

NKJ John6:44-47 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

God the Father drawing men to Jesus by teaching them > men hearing & learning His teaching > men who've heard and learned from God the Father come to Jesus the only one who is from God and has seen the Father > believe in Jesus for eternal life.

"You call me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am. (John13:13 NKJ)

Our Lord and Teacher is simply drawing from Is54:13 and saying it is learned men of God who will come to Him. He who has [potato-head] ears, listen up!

The rest of what you say about the HS isn't from the verse you reference.

It's a shame to see Christians pick up the terminology of the [HELPLESSNESS] OF man preacher (so cc @Rufus).

FTFY! The lies just roll off your tongue so easily, don't they?

 

[Rufus]

Earth calling GWH? Are you there? Are you still breathing? I ask because because I'm still waiting for you to intelligently and coherently explain how God would be playing favorites by electing many to be saved instead of all. You need to back up your silly claim by revealing to us what the nature of God's bias would be.

 

[Magenta]

FTFY! The lies just roll off your tongue so easily, don't they?

It would be lovely if some of these people acknowledged that not everyone hears (Jesus said so!!!)... And that it is Jesus who opens people's ears, eyes, minds and hearts so they can see, hear, and understand the gospel. But this really is the dividing line isn't it? Some claim men in their natural state need no help at all from God, despite everything said of that person in the Scriptures to the contrary.

 

[Rufus]

It would be lovely if some of these people acknowledged that not everyone hears... And that it is Jesus who opens people's ears, eyes, minds and hearts so they can see, hear, and understand the gospel. But this really is the dividing line isn't it? Some claim men in their natural state need no help at all from God, despite everything said of that person in the Scriptures to the contrary.

The FWers refuse to see themselves as God does: Helpless, vile, depraved, wicked, evildoers imprisoned in chains! If only every professing Christian would see themselves as humble Mephibosheth did -- as a DEAD DOG totally unworthy of God's love and grace then such humble confession and acknowledgement would truly exalt God's glory. Instead, FWers by stark contrast stroke their egos by assigning to themselves what only God Himself can do. FWers powerful "freewill" can give sight to their own blindness, give hearing to their own deaf ears and life to their own spiritually dead souls. FWT is clearly a doctrine of the antichrist; for they ascribe to themselves what only Christ can do to and for them!

 

[Magenta]

The FWers refuse to see themselves as God does: Helpless, vile, depraved, wicked, evildoers imprisoned in chains! If only every professing Christian would see themselves as humble Mephibosheth did -- as a DEAD DOG totally unworthy of God's love and grace then such humble confession and acknowledgement would truly exalt God's glory. Instead, FWers by stark contrast stroke their egos by assigning to themselves what only God Himself can do. FWers powerful "freewill" can give sight to their own blindness, give hearing to their own deaf ears and life to their own spiritually dead souls. FWT is clearly a doctrine of the antichrist; for they ascribe to themselves what only Christ can do to and for them!

from Revelation 3 verse 17-18 ~ You say, ‘I need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

 

[Rufus]

from Revelation 3 verse 17-18 ~ You say, ‘I need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

Why in the world would any FWer need to "buy" salve from Christ to anoint their eyes to see when they clearly saw (understood) the gospel by the almighty power of their own "freewill" apart from that healing salve!?

 

[Magenta]

Why in the world would any FWer need to "buy" salve from Christ to anoint their eyes to see when they clearly
saw (understood) the gospel by the almighty power of their own "freewill" apart from that healing salve!?

Yes, when you get right down to it, there are an incredible number of Scriptures that must be overthrown
to hold to the free will fantasy. Overthrown, ignored, twisted out of shape to beyond recognition, taken
out of context, contradicted, and outright denied. It does rather boggle the mind. And how often are we
told, oh, all that stuff about the hearts of men being bad only applies to the Jews, or, it took a long time
for men to become really bad, when in actual fact, of the first two males born of Adam, one was a murderer,
and slew his own brother. How bad does bad have to get before it is seen as bad? Nah, in the theology of
free willers, the heart of the natural man does not need replacing at all even though God says it does, and
despite Jesus saying a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit, the free willer says the opposite.

 

[GWH]

Earth calling GWH? Are you there? Are you still breathing? I ask because because I'm still waiting for you to intelligently and coherently explain how God would be playing favorites by electing many to be saved instead of all. You need to back up your silly claim by revealing to us what the nature of God's bias would be.

And I am still waiting for you to stop obfuscating so we can converse instead of ping-pong.

Surely you know by now that my view/interpretation is God enables all sinners to be saved--or not.

In this way God does not show favoritism, but those who exercise God's enabling of MFW to reject GRFS condemn themselves,
which is just.

(You can see the systematic study of election on the Hermeneutics thread, where the purpose is seeking harmonization,
and participate if you are getting tired of ping-pong.)

 

[Rufus]

And I am still waiting for you to stop obfuscating so we can converse instead of ping-pong.

Surely you know by now that my view/interpretation is God enables all sinners to be saved--or not.

In this way God does not show favoritism, but those who exercise God's enabling of MFW to reject GRFS condemn themselves,
which is just.

(You can see the systematic study of election on the Hermeneutics thread, where the purpose is seeking harmonization,
and participate if you are getting tired of ping-pong.)

In other words, you're without a clue which is why you can't provide a straight, honest answer to my pertinent question re your empty, blasphemous charge of "favoritism" against God if he chooses to save only many instead of all w/o exception. The question again: How could God favor any person when all are sinners!? What would the basis of any favoritism be? You make this stupid charge then criticize and falsely accuse anyone who dares to question you on it -- proving once again just how intellectually and theologically bankrupt your FWT system is.

And there's no passage in scripture that teaches that God enables all men to be saved. If he does, then all mankind would be saved and this would contradict Remnant Theology.

 

[Inquisitor]

In other words, you're without a clue which is why you can't provide a straight, honest answer to my pertinent question re your empty, blasphemous charge of "favoritism" against God if he chooses to save only many instead of all w/o exception. The question again: How could God favor any person when all are sinners!? What would the basis of any favoritism be? You make this stupid charge then criticize and falsely accuse anyone who dares to question you on it -- proving once again just how intellectually and theologically bankrupt your FWT system is.

And there's no passage in scripture that teaches that God enables all men to be saved. If he does, then all mankind would be saved and this would contradict Remnant Theology.

What is difficult to comprehend is that Jesus creates men with no hope of salvation, because they are not elect.

A very large number of Jews and Gentiles are born to burn and that is God's sovereign will.

In fact, God hates the majority of mankind (Jacob and Esau).

 

[Rufus]

Yes, when you get right down to it, there are an incredible number of Scriptures that must be overthrown
to hold to the free will fantasy. Overthrown, ignored, twisted out of shape to beyond recognition, taken
out of context, contradicted, and outright denied. It does rather boggle the mind. And how often are we
told, oh, all that stuff about the hearts of men being bad only applies to the Jews, or, it took a long time
for men to become really bad, when in actual fact, of the first two males born of Adam, one was a murderer,
and slew his own brother. How bad does bad have to get before it is seen as bad? Nah, in the theology of
free willers, the heart of the natural man does not need replacing at all even though God says it does, and
despite Jesus saying a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit, the free willer says the opposite.

These "freewill Christians" (so called) sound more and more like Satan's seed whereby they exalt the power of their "freewill" and greatly diminish God's rescuing work in saving his people. They reduce God to a cosmic, passive spectator who merely provides opportunities for all to be saved as opposed to actual salvation. And they can't even get their foundational premise right since God provides no salvific opportunities to the underage who die prematurely without having any true knowledge of good and evil. They keep forgetting that if they're going to talk about universal saving grace to all w/o exception -- then must be no exceptions!

It's so easy to dismantle their demonically-inspired heresies!

 

[Rufus]

What is difficult to comprehend is that Jesus creates men with no hope of salvation, because they are not elect.

A very large number of Jews and Gentiles are born to burn and that is God's sovereign will to which the lost are willingly complicit.

In fact, God hates the majority of mankind (Jacob and Esau).

That is correct insofar as it goes, so I FTFY, since you forgot to mention the second part. After all, has any more mortal been come into this world fearing God and loving Him?

 

[BillyBob]

Great post, @BillyBob, and should any of the FW'ers care to read John 17 closely, fairly, and objectively enough, they will find your conclusion fully corroborated there.

[Jhn 17:2 KJV] 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Those that have been given to Christ are written in His book and the book is sealed - so that none may be added or taken away.......

 

[rogerg]

Those that have been given to Christ are written in His book and the book is sealed - so that none may be added or taken away.......

Absolutely agree, BillyBob.

 

[BillyBob]

And there's no passage in scripture that teaches that God enables all men to be saved. If he does, then all mankind would be saved and this would contradict Remnant Theology.

I agree! God only does that which will glorify himself. If He enabled all men to be saved and even one was lost, that certainly would not bring him glory, it would in fact take some of His glory away.

 

[GWH]

In other words, you're without a clue which is why you can't provide a straight, honest answer to my pertinent question re your empty, blasphemous charge of "favoritism" against God if he chooses to save only many instead of all w/o exception. The question again: How could God favor any person when all are sinners!? What would the basis of any favoritism be? You make this stupid charge then criticize and falsely accuse anyone who dares to question you on it -- proving once again just how intellectually and theologically bankrupt your FWT system is.

And there's no passage in scripture that teaches that God enables all men to be saved. If he does, then all mankind would be saved and this would contradict Remnant Theology.

In other words, I wish God would enable you to understand plain English (assuming you are not trolling me),
in this case: 1. that enabling the possibility of choosing to satisfy GRFS by providing MFW does NOT mean forcing folks
to believe and be saved and 2. that favoritism obviously occurs if only some are offered the possibility of salvation.

Since you believe God only loves and makes some sinners saved,
you are the one who need to answer the question regarding the basis of such favoritism.

 

[Inquisitor]

That is correct insofar as it goes, so I FTFY, since you forgot to mention the second part. After all, has any more mortal been come into this world fearing God and loving Him?

That's incorrect, Rufus.

The lost were predestined to burn.

They were created to be destroyed before they were born (Jacob and Esau).

The decisions they made throughout their lives will not alter God's predetermined will.

One huge advertisement for the lack of love that God has towards the bulk of creation.

The billions of toddlers that God had no love for.

What a beautiful thing Calvinism really is all about.

 

[BillyBob]

The people of God are in no way chosen based on anything good that He sees in them. This decision is simply based on God's good pleasure. These are the ones which were chosen before creation to be His prized possession. They are the ELECT which are often spoken of in scripture.

The Canons of Dort truthfully states the following:
Election is the source of each of the benefits of salvation. Faith, holiness, and the other saving gifts, and at last eternal life itself, flow forth from election as its fruits and effects. As the apostle says, He chose us (not because we were, but) so that we should be holy and blameless before him in love (Eph. 1:4).