Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

Acts 26 verses 16b - 18 ~ I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen from Me and what I will show you. I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those sanctified by faith in Me.

 

[Inquisitor]

The people of God are in no way chosen based on anything good that He sees in them. This decision is simply based on God's good pleasure. These are the ones which were chosen before creation to be His prized possession. They are the ELECT which are often spoken of in scripture.

The Canons of Dort truthfully states the following:
Election is the source of each of the benefits of salvation. Faith, holiness, and the other saving gifts, and at last eternal life itself, flow forth from election as its fruits and effects. As the apostle says, He chose us (not because we were, but) so that we should be holy and blameless before him in love (Eph. 1:4).

Paul was distinguishing two different groups of people in Romans.

The Jews and the Gentiles.

The Jews were grafted out and the Gentiles were grafted in.

Paul was never discussing individual election in Romans and that's where everyone goes wrong.

Here are a few verses from Romans 11.

21 for if God did not spare the natural branches (Israel), He will not spare you (Gentiles), either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—
that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

There is no individual election in chapter 11 of Romans and not a single thread to weave.

 

[studier]

The Reformed or “Calvinists,” as they are all too frequently identified, have been viewed as pairing almost dualistically “the nothingness of man” with “the overmastering power of God,” and, accordingly, as teaching a fundamentally predestinarian or deterministic theology—whether in utter accord with Calvin's thought or in a further, negative development of it. (p. 21)

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The much better question is

Asked and answered. Denial tactics on your part. Nothing new from the nothingness of man.

 

[studier]

The Reformed or “Calvinists,” as they are all too frequently identified, have been viewed as pairing almost dualistically “the nothingness of man” with “the overmastering power of God,” and, accordingly, as teaching a fundamentally predestinarian or deterministic theology—whether in utter accord with Calvin's thought or in a further, negative development of it. (p. 21)

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FTFY! The lies just roll off your tongue so easily, don't they?

Misquoting, eisegesis, just another day at the nothingness of man office.

 

[studier]

The Reformed or “Calvinists,” as they are all too frequently identified, have been viewed as pairing almost dualistically “the nothingness of man” with “the overmastering power of God,” and, accordingly, as teaching a fundamentally predestinarian or deterministic theology—whether in utter accord with Calvin's thought or in a further, negative development of it. (p. 21)

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The FWers refuse to see themselves as God does: Helpless, vile, depraved, wicked, evildoers imprisoned in chains! If only every professing Christian would see themselves as humble Mephibosheth did -- as a DEAD DOG totally unworthy of God's love and grace then such humble confession and acknowledgement would truly exalt God's glory. Instead, FWers by stark contrast stroke their egos by assigning to themselves what only God Himself can do. FWers powerful "freewill" can give sight to their own blindness, give hearing to their own deaf ears and life to their own spiritually dead souls. FWT is clearly a doctrine of the antichrist; for they ascribe to themselves what only Christ can do to and for them!

More eisegesis and misinterpretation from the nothingness of man to ascribe the nothingness of man. From what I can see, the "dead dog" phrase was used 3 times in the Tanakh as a Jewish expression of a man lessening himself before a king and not as you are using it. Misquoting, eisegesis, whatever it takes to establish the nothingness of man to fit into your depraved tradition.

Except when you're not! I know I chose to repent and believe the gospel while simultaneously knowing and believing I made that choice entirely by the power of God's grace. Neither the Father, the Son or the Holy Ghost chose to believe for me! But God in eternity did decree that *I* would choose to believe and repent. Therefore, my will was in alignment with God's!

Reformatted and highlighted:

Except when you're not!
I know I chose to repent and believe the gospel
while simultaneously knowing and believing I made that choice entirely by the power of God's grace.
Neither the Father, the Son or the Holy Ghost chose to believe for me!
But God in eternity did decree that *I* would choose to believe and repent.
Therefore, my will was in alignment with God's!

So:

• I chose to repent and believe the gospel
  • I made the choice entirely by the power of God's grace
  • God in eternity decreed I would choose to believe and repent.
    • Per my view of the Calvinistic doctrine of compatibilism
      • Which in my view does not include free will because free will does not exist
        • So, I did not freely choose because:
          • There is no free will
          • Impartial God decreed my choice so I could not choose otherwise
            • Impartial God is glorified because He decreed I would choose, and by the power of His grace I chose for eternal life
            • Thus, those whom impartial God decreed would not choose to believe also could not do otherwise
              • Impartial God is glorified because He decreed they would not choose, and by withholding the power of His grace, they did not choose for eternal life, but for eternal damnation.

It sounds to me like your concept of human volition is an illusion, shrouded in an interpretive version of grace.

 

[studier]

Why in the world would any FWer need to "buy" salve from Christ to anoint their eyes to see when they clearly saw (understood) the gospel by the almighty power of their own "freewill" apart from that healing salve!?

Why would the Lord advise His wayward Church to do something He could just force them to do by the power of His grace and then have them claim some nonsense about compatibilism. Why would this be about first believing the Gospel when it's about the Lord's review of the condition of His Church - Christians - whom He loves and disciplines?

19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. (Rev. 3:19 NKJ)

Those underlined words are commands made to the volition of His Ekklesia.

He loves them, examines them carefully and corrects them, He instructs/develops/disciplines them, He advises them to do things, He commands them to be eager and repent.

 

[Rufus]

In other words, I wish God would enable you to understand plain English (assuming you are not trolling me),
in this case: 1. that enabling the possibility of choosing to satisfy GRFS by providing MFW does NOT mean forcing folks
to believe and be saved and 2. that favoritism obviously occurs if only some are offered the possibility of salvation.

Since you believe God only loves and makes some sinners saved,
you are the one who need to answer the question regarding the basis of such favoritism.

Since you say that favoritism is so obvious, how come you are unable to tell us what the basis of that favoritism would be if God elects many to salvation and not all?

Are some unregenerate sinners more righteous than others? More religious than others? More pious than others? Smarter than others? Wiser than others? What?

Or take the cast of characters in Romans 9. Did God show favoritism to Issac when he chose him to be a child of promise and omitted Ishmael from the Abrahamic Covenant? Ditto question for Jacob and Esau! You need to explain to us why God favored Issac and Jacob over Ishmael and Esau, respectively.

By the way, the answer to the questions in the above paragraph are actually found in the above mentioned chapter! But you will first need to remove the scales from your eyes to be able to see what you don't want to see!

 

[GWH]

Since you say that favoritism is so obvious, how come you are unable to tell us what the basis of that favoritism would be if God elects many to salvation and not all?

Are some unregenerate sinners more righteous than others? More religious than others? More pious than others? Smarter than others? Wiser than others? What?

Or take the cast of characters in Romans 9. Did God show favoritism to Issac when he chose him to be a child of promise and omitted Ishmael from the Abrahamic Covenant? Ditto question for Jacob and Esau! You need to explain to us why God favored Issac and Jacob over Ishmael and Esau, respectively.

By the way, the answer to the questions in the above paragraph are actually found in the above mentioned chapter! But you will first need to remove the scales from your eyes to be able to see what you don't want to see!

You need to practice what you preach and pray for God to remove the scales from your eyes so you will be enabled to see that favoritism is avoided by gracing all sinners with sufficient mfw to seek salvation and find nonmeritorious faith that satisfies God’s requirement for salvation.

 

[Rufus]

The Reformed or “Calvinists,” as they are all too frequently identified, have been viewed as pairing almost dualistically “the nothingness of man” with “the overmastering power of God,” and, accordingly, as teaching a fundamentally predestinarian or deterministic theology—whether in utter accord with Calvin's thought or in a further, negative development of it. (p. 21)

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More eisegesis and misinterpretation from the nothingness of man to ascribe the nothingness of man. From what I can see, the "dead dog" phrase was used 3 times in the Tanakh as a Jewish expression of a man lessening himself before a king and not as you are using it. Misquoting, eisegesis, whatever it takes to establish the nothingness of man to fit into your depraved tradition.



Reformatted and highlighted:

Except when you're not!
I know I chose to repent and believe the gospel
while simultaneously knowing and believing I made that choice entirely by the power of God's grace.
Neither the Father, the Son or the Holy Ghost chose to believe for me!
But God in eternity did decree that *I* would choose to believe and repent.
Therefore, my will was in alignment with God's!

So:

• I chose to repent and believe the gospel
  • I made the choice entirely by the power of God's grace
  • God in eternity decreed I would choose to believe and repent.
    • Per my view of the Calvinistic doctrine of compatibilism
      • Which in my view does not include free will because free will does not exist
        • So, I did not freely choose because:
          • There is no free will
          • Impartial God decreed my choice so I could not choose otherwise
            • Impartial God is glorified because He decreed I would choose, and by the power of His grace I chose for eternal life
            • Thus, those whom impartial God decreed would not choose to believe also could not do otherwise
              • Impartial God is glorified because He decreed they would not choose, and by withholding the power of His grace, they did not choose for eternal life, but for eternal damnation.

It sounds to me like your concept of human volition is an illusion, shrouded in an interpretive version of grace.

I am so glad you wrote what I bolded in red because this very clearly demonstrates just how shallow your understanding of spiritual truth is, which I commented on recently! Was not David a king? Was not David a type of Christ? Is not Jesus Christ the Son of David? Isn't Jesus Christ the King of kings and Lord of lords, which would make Christ the Greater David? And doesn't Mephibosheth symbolize all mortal sinners who must come face-to-face with the King of kings one day? Yet, you despise Mephibosheth's humility that he displayed before God's apointed, anointed king!?

Moreover, you're obviously oblivious to what scripture teaches about the necessity of humility in a sinner's life. I suppose you have never read Jas 4:6; Prov 3:34; 15:33; 18:12; 22:4; 2Chron 34:37; Isa 57:15?

Where do you think your pride, arrogance and your "freewill" ignorance of God's Word is going to take you? Don't you know that pride and a haughty spirit goeth before a fall (Prov 16:18)? And have you never come to see that pride, which always exalts Self is the very essence of SIN, and that it's the top sin among the Seven Deadly (Prov 6:16-19)?

I wish to God that ALL of us w/o exception would emulate Mephibosheth's humility before our King since he has called many of us to Himself, just as king David called Jonathan's crippled son to himself! And if David abundantly showered humble Mephibosheth with temporal grace, how much more has the Son of David abundantly poured out his eternal grace upon the humble whom He has called to Himself?

Wake up, already, and smell the coffee before it's too late! You're not as wise and smart as you seem to think.

 

[GWH]

You need to practice what you preach and pray for God to remove the scales from your eyes so you will be enabled to see that favoritism is avoided by gracing all sinners with sufficient mfw to seek salvation and find nonmeritorious faith that satisfies God’s requirement for salvation.

—or not!

 

[Rufus]

You need to practice what you preach and pray for God to remove the scales from your eyes so you will be enabled to see that favoritism is avoided by gracing all sinners with sufficient mfw to seek salvation and find nonmeritorious faith that satisfies God’s requirement for salvation.

There is no "favoritism avoided" since there isn't any basis for God to play favorites in the first place. That kind of inane excuse is a fiction of your own corrupt imagination And there's no text in scripture that talks about God "gracing all sinners with sufficient 'mfw' to seek salvation -- but there are passages that talk about God gifting his covenant people with new hearts! Besides, men don't naturally seek God, which is precisely why God is gracious and actively seeks out his chosen people and gives them to Christ.

 

[Rufus]

Why would the Lord advise His wayward Church to do something He could just force them to do by the power of His grace and then have them claim some nonsense about compatibilism. Why would this be about first believing the Gospel when it's about the Lord's review of the condition of His Church - Christians - whom He loves and disciplines?

19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. (Rev. 3:19 NKJ)

Those underlined words are commands made to the volition of His Ekklesia.

He loves them, examines them carefully and corrects them, He instructs/develops/disciplines them, He advises them to do things, He commands them to be eager and repent.

God does far more than "advise": HE COMMANDS! And now you want to know "why" he commands? The answer is simple: So that his elect would have the objective presuppositional truth claims of His Word against which to measure their lives. What better way for His elect to become aware that they are His New Creation!?

 

[GWH]

There is no "favoritism avoided" since there isn't any basis for God to play favorites in the first place. That kind of inane excuse is a fiction of your own corrupt imagination And there's no text in scripture that talks about God "gracing all sinners with sufficient 'mfw' to seek salvation -- but there are passages that talk about God gifting his covenant people with new hearts! Besides, men don't naturally seek God, which is precisely why God is gracious and actively seeks out his chosen people and gives them to Christ.

In English “gifting” means offering, NOT forcing or determining.

 

[Rufus]

Hey, Studier, I'm still waiting for you to address the questions I raised re Jer 13:23! Don't tell me that you still haven't figured out the answer to the prophet's rhetorical question in part "a" of the text? (For a guy who prides himself on his smarts, you're a wee bit slow on the uptake, aren't you?) Nor have you told us why the prophet is making an analogy between the entities in "a" with the entity in "b".

 

[Rufus]

In English “gifting” means offering, NOT forcing or determining.

Is that what the Good Samaritan did with the half-dead Jew he found on the road: He forced himself upon him because he determined to help a helpless human being? But I digress...point to chapter and verse that teaches that God gifts everyone with "freewill".

 

[studier]

The Reformed or “Calvinists,” as they are all too frequently identified, have been viewed as pairing almost dualistically “the nothingness of man” with “the overmastering power of God,” and, accordingly, as teaching a fundamentally predestinarian or deterministic theology—whether in utter accord with Calvin's thought or in a further, negative development of it. (p. 21)

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I am so glad you wrote what I bolded in red because this very clearly demonstrates just how shallow your understanding of spiritual truth is, which I commented on recently! Was not David a king? Was not David a type of Christ? Is not Jesus Christ the Son of David? Isn't Jesus Christ the King of kings and Lord of lords, which would make Christ the Greater David? And doesn't Mephibosheth symbolize all mortal sinners who must come face-to-face with the King of kings one day? Yet, you despise Mephibosheth's humility that he displayed before God's apointed, anointed king!?

Sorry, eisegete. Once you start making analogies beyond the context of the Text, you can try as you do to make anything say what you want it to say. Stick with the Text.

You're an oddity with common practices. You make up stuff and assert that those who don't think like you are prideful and thus lack humility. Then you use a few Scriptures that speak of humility and assert that they make your case. But you can't prove your premise so it's all a concoction.

Once again, as usual, I offer you the choice to dig into the Text and do some work. Just a quick search in the Greek to cover the NC and the LXX, we have about 200 mentions of humbl* and humility. Dig in and provide a verse or more that says that men who choose to believe in God and/or in His Son as He commands are prideful and lack humility. At least prove your premise before making up a link between it and your conclusions.

Where do you think your pride, arrogance and your "freewill" ignorance of God's Word is going to take you? Don't you know that pride and a haughty spirit goeth before a fall (Prov 16:18)? And have you never come to see that pride, which always exalts Self is the very essence of SIN, and that it's the top sin among the Seven Deadly (Prov 6:16-19)?

Answered above.

I wish to God that ALL of us w/o exception would emulate Mephibosheth's humility before our King since he has called many of us to Himself, just as king David called Jonathan's crippled son to himself! And if David abundantly showered humble Mephibosheth with temporal grace, how much more has the Son of David abundantly poured out his eternal grace upon the humble whom He has called to Himself?

And I wish to God you'd learn some proper hermeneutics and stop with the emotional appeals suited only to attempting to make yourself seem spiritually superior to your siblings in Christ.

Each of us have found our humility before our Lord God in ways that were acceptable to Him, irrespective of your tactics to support your tradition and self-asserted superiority steeped in eisegesis and spiritualizing the Text beyond what's warranted. Do you actually think each one of us needed to call ourselves dead dogs and fleas - a Jewish practice before kings to some degree - before our Lord found us humbled in His eyes?

Whatever fits your nothingness of man focus but you shouldn't be legalistically forcing it on everyone else. What's your problem anyway? How did you get to this severe and imbalanced focus against human volition and the power of God's Word and His ability to make Himself known to all men?

Wake up, already, and smell the coffee before it's too late! You're not as wise and smart as you seem to think.

Back at you.

 

[Magenta]

Wake up, already, and smell the coffee before it's too late! You're not as wise and smart as you seem to think.

Their whole diatribe highlighted their lack of comprehension, speaking as if you were NOT made free
so you could make a choice, then blathering on as if Scripture never says those given to Christ WILL
come to Him. One almost must assume at this point that their ignorance is wilful.

 

[studier]

The Reformed or “Calvinists,” as they are all too frequently identified, have been viewed as pairing almost dualistically “the nothingness of man” with “the overmastering power of God,” and, accordingly, as teaching a fundamentally predestinarian or deterministic theology—whether in utter accord with Calvin's thought or in a further, negative development of it. (p. 21)

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God does far more than "advise": HE COMMANDS! And now you want to know "why" he commands? The answer is simple: So that his elect would have the objective presuppositional truth claims of His Word against which to measure their lives. What better way for His elect to become aware that they are His New Creation!?

You're telling me something I just made you aware of from the Text. Herein lies part of the problem, you don't comprehend what you read. Then in that lack of comprehension you try to make it sound like you're the one informing.

And now you're taking us into the empty arguments re: commands being only instructional vs. actually being commands from God to our volition to do what He says. And previously you've presented statements that make human volition an illusion.

It looks to me like you really do not believe in human volition or in volitional commands. But you argue against others like @GWH that speak to you using the robot analogies.

It's all smoke and mirrors. You're on autopilot from beginning to end - decreed, elect, perseverance of the saints - TULIP to the core giving lip service to an illusory human volition along with some in the sect opposed to traditional Calvinism who more honestly rejected human will.

Sorry, nothingness of man, your presuppositional nonsense is rotten to the core. Once you start explaining away God's many commands to His creation, you remove His authority, and He is a god among many and not God, and faith is a joke.

 

[studier]

The Reformed or “Calvinists,” as they are all too frequently identified, have been viewed as pairing almost dualistically “the nothingness of man” with “the overmastering power of God,” and, accordingly, as teaching a fundamentally predestinarian or deterministic theology—whether in utter accord with Calvin's thought or in a further, negative development of it. (p. 21)

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Hey, Studier, I'm still waiting for you to address the questions I raised re Jer 13:23! Don't tell me that you still haven't figured out the answer to the prophet's rhetorical question in part "a" of the text? (For a guy who prides himself on his smarts, you're a wee bit slow on the uptake, aren't you?) Nor have you told us why the prophet is making an analogy between the entities in "a" with the entity in "b".

Asked and answered. As just seen in the previous post, your reading comprehension is not good. It seems to be at least part of the basis for your inane tactics to make repetitive assertions like this one.

Actually, I now think you could well be an example of that section of Jer13 and your trust in TULIP (falsehood v.25) is complete and the appeal to you to be made clean v.27 has gone too long unheeded (almost 14k posts here alone + whatever the reasons for you to be rejected from reformed forums before this 14k). Therefore 13:23 may well work for you.

But, then again, this may be an analogy not meant to be spiritualized.

 

[studier]

In English “gifting” means offering, NOT forcing or determining.

And, in Greek, calling in one sense means inviting which in normally functioning minds eventuates in choosing to accept or reject.