Understanding God’s election
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Interesting how people so blithely ignore being under the power and influence of Satan, then call it
being free. And then you call God working on the inner man something that the person them self does?
Interesting. Well, we know there are those here who believe they needed no help whatsoever from God
and they further claim, against the very words of Jesus Christ, that supernatural intervention is not required
at all. Yes, interesting, and completely unBiblical. The lack of self awareness among free willers is rather disgraceful.
being free. And then you call God working on the inner man something that the person them self does?
Interesting. Well, we know there are those here who believe they needed no help whatsoever from God
and they further claim, against the very words of Jesus Christ, that supernatural intervention is not required
at all. Yes, interesting, and completely unBiblical. The lack of self awareness among free willers is rather disgraceful.
It means to set a destination beforehand. An admiral who instructs his captains to be at a certain island on a certain date has predestined/predestinated/ predetermined where He wants them to be at that time. However, some may, for various reasons, not be present at the island on that date. That does not mean that the admiral had therefore failed to predestine/predestinate/predetermine them to be there.
Predestination does not per se require foreknowledge.
Predestination does not per se require foreknowledge.
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You may be totally depraved. And good for you to admit it, if it's true. Although if it were true and you admitted it, you would not be totally depraved, and it would be untrue. There's a logical contradiction in your assertion, it seems.
But I'm not totally depraved, and have no need to profess to be totally depraved, because the scriptures don't call me that and my experience contradicts that claim.
But I'm not totally depraved, and have no need to profess to be totally depraved, because the scriptures don't call me that and my experience contradicts that claim.
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I would be happy to explain any scriptures I cite or quote to a mature, thinking, honest adult. But since you cannot answer the rhetorical question in Jer 13:23 with a simple "yes" or "no" answer, this can only mean that the text is above your pay grade or you're too ashamed to publicly admit to a "yes" answer. In either case, why should I waste my time explaining anything to you?
My goodness....I thought for sure, I'd wake up this morning to see at least a post or two by a FWer explaining how God did not tyrannically bully Jonah into doing His will. 
But all is not lost. Such deafening silence by FWers is a tacit admission that God does indeed "force" people to bend to his will, even though FWers would swear on a stack of bibles that God would never do such a thing. Also, Jonah's experience is not some rare, isolated, unique example of God exercising his sovereign authority over his moral creatures. The false prophet Balaam had a very similar experience!
Balaam, too, was not only "forcefully" restrained by God from cursing Israel but even worse, he was "bullied" by God to bless Israel -- much to the chagrin of Balak.
But even before Balaam came along, God also "bullied" the pagan king Abimelech by restraining his evil intentions toward Sarah. But even more than this...God got the self-righteous king to admit to his own guilt re his evil intentions toward Abraham's wife and the king made restitution to Abraham.
For those of us who have eyes to see and ears to hear, we can clearly see a pattern that is common in these passages. In each case, God's grace functions in a negative and positive fashion. In every instance, God restrains evil and also powerfully effectuates good results which was God's ultimate purpose. In Jonah's case, God effectually protected and preserved Jonah by punishing his disobedience and disloyalty to God, which ultimately resulted in Jonah's final obedience to God's commission which in turn resulted in the salvation of many Ninevites. In Balaam's case, God restrained the prophet's madness which resulted in his positive blessings upon Israel. And in Abimelech's situation God thwarted the king's evil designs upon Sarah while also elciting a confession from the king along with him making restitution to Abraham for his offense against Sarah.
In fact, we can even see this identical pattern in Joseph's life, as well. God ordained all the evil that Josephs' brothers initiated against him but utlimately it all turned out for good since God also had decreed that Joseph protect and preserve Jacob and his entire family from a severe famine by providing safe haven for them in Egypt.
So...for you FWers who think that God would never "bully" anyone into submission to do his will, I strongly suspect that you will never be happy in the visible, eternal, sin-free Kingdom since no one will ever be able to think, speak or act against God's holy, righteous, good and perfect will. FWers would be far more at home where one could obstenstibly "freely" choose to do good or evil in that burning lake of sulfur instead of implicitly trusting in God's goodness, faithfulness, holiness and love to rule your life.
But all is not lost. Such deafening silence by FWers is a tacit admission that God does indeed "force" people to bend to his will, even though FWers would swear on a stack of bibles that God would never do such a thing. Also, Jonah's experience is not some rare, isolated, unique example of God exercising his sovereign authority over his moral creatures. The false prophet Balaam had a very similar experience!Balaam, too, was not only "forcefully" restrained by God from cursing Israel but even worse, he was "bullied" by God to bless Israel -- much to the chagrin of Balak.
But even before Balaam came along, God also "bullied" the pagan king Abimelech by restraining his evil intentions toward Sarah. But even more than this...God got the self-righteous king to admit to his own guilt re his evil intentions toward Abraham's wife and the king made restitution to Abraham.
For those of us who have eyes to see and ears to hear, we can clearly see a pattern that is common in these passages. In each case, God's grace functions in a negative and positive fashion. In every instance, God restrains evil and also powerfully effectuates good results which was God's ultimate purpose. In Jonah's case, God effectually protected and preserved Jonah by punishing his disobedience and disloyalty to God, which ultimately resulted in Jonah's final obedience to God's commission which in turn resulted in the salvation of many Ninevites. In Balaam's case, God restrained the prophet's madness which resulted in his positive blessings upon Israel. And in Abimelech's situation God thwarted the king's evil designs upon Sarah while also elciting a confession from the king along with him making restitution to Abraham for his offense against Sarah.
In fact, we can even see this identical pattern in Joseph's life, as well. God ordained all the evil that Josephs' brothers initiated against him but utlimately it all turned out for good since God also had decreed that Joseph protect and preserve Jacob and his entire family from a severe famine by providing safe haven for them in Egypt.
So...for you FWers who think that God would never "bully" anyone into submission to do his will, I strongly suspect that you will never be happy in the visible, eternal, sin-free Kingdom since no one will ever be able to think, speak or act against God's holy, righteous, good and perfect will. FWers would be far more at home where one could obstenstibly "freely" choose to do good or evil in that burning lake of sulfur instead of implicitly trusting in God's goodness, faithfulness, holiness and love to rule your life.
The first good question I've seen from you.
Answer: You shouldn't.
It actually would be better for all involved if we both just posted and explained Scripture and allowed one another to respond with and explain Scripture.
As it is, whether or not you've picked up on this, the ping-pong ad-hominem match, from my perspective is in part to keep you busy and entertained so I get less of your confused and erroneous teaching like your recent confused mess re: TULIPian Irresistible Grace.
Answer: You shouldn't.
It actually would be better for all involved if we both just posted and explained Scripture and allowed one another to respond with and explain Scripture.
As it is, whether or not you've picked up on this, the ping-pong ad-hominem match, from my perspective is in part to keep you busy and entertained so I get less of your confused and erroneous teaching like your recent confused mess re: TULIPian Irresistible Grace.
Confused much? Conflicted much? Besides your inability to answer a simple "yes" or "no" to Jeremiah's rhetorical question, you also cannot let your "yes" be yes and your "no" be no; but rather betray the chaos of your own mind by now saying "yes" and "no". First you try to taunt me into explaining things to you but now tell me I shouldn't.
Pathetic!
Pathetic!
Confused much? Conflicted much? Besides your inability to answer a simple "yes" or "no" to Jeremiah's rhetorical question, you also cannot let your "yes" be yes and your "no" be no; but rather betray the chaos of your own mind by now saying "yes" and "no". First you try to taunt me into explaining things to you but now tell me I shouldn't.
Pathetic!
Pathetic!
now all their trash talking was to keep you busy??? And entertained??? Unbelievable.
And I mean that literally. I do not believe them. They say one thing and do another.
And they have been doing this for long, long time.
My goodness....I thought for sure, I'd wake up this morning to see at least a post or two by a FWer explaining how God did not tyrannically bully Jonah into doing His will. But all is not lost. Such deafening silence by FWers is a tacit admission that God does indeed "force" people to bend to his will, even though FWers would swear on a stack of bibles that God would never do such a thing. Also, Jonah's experience is not some rare, isolated, unique example of God exercising his sovereign authority over his moral creatures. The false prophet Balaam had a very similar experience!
Balaam, too, was not only "forcefully" restrained by God from cursing Israel but even worse, he was "bullied" by God to bless Israel -- much to the chagrin of Balak.
But even before Balaam came along, God also "bullied" the pagan king Abimelech by restraining his evil intentions toward Sarah. But even more than this...God got the self-righteous king to admit to his own guilt re his evil intentions toward Abraham's wife and the king made restitution to Abraham.
For those of us who have eyes to see and ears to hear, we can clearly see a pattern that is common in these passages. In each case, God's grace functions in a negative and positive fashion. In every instance, God restrains evil and also powerfully effectuates good results which was God's ultimate purpose. In Jonah's case, God effectually protected and preserved Jonah by punishing his disobedience and disloyalty to God, which ultimately resulted in Jonah's final obedience to God's commission which in turn resulted in the salvation of many Ninevites. In Balaam's case, God restrained the prophet's madness which resulted in his positive blessings upon Israel. And in Abimelech's situation God thwarted the king's evil designs upon Sarah while also elciting a confession from the king along with him making restitution to Abraham for his offense against Sarah.
In fact, we can even see this identical pattern in Joseph's life, as well. God ordained all the evil that Josephs' brothers initiated against him but utlimately it all turned out for good since God also had decreed that Joseph protect and preserve Jacob and his entire family from a severe famine by providing safe haven for them in Egypt.
So...for you FWers who think that God would never "bully" anyone into submission to do his will, I strongly suspect that you will never be happy in the visible, eternal, sin-free Kingdom since no one will ever be able to think, speak or act against God's holy, righteous, good and perfect will. FWers would be far more at home where one could obstenstibly "freely" choose to do good or evil in that burning lake of sulfur instead of implicitly trusting in God's goodness, faithfulness, holiness and love to rule your life.
But all is not lost. Such deafening silence by FWers is a tacit admission that God does indeed "force" people to bend to his will, even though FWers would swear on a stack of bibles that God would never do such a thing. Also, Jonah's experience is not some rare, isolated, unique example of God exercising his sovereign authority over his moral creatures. The false prophet Balaam had a very similar experience!Balaam, too, was not only "forcefully" restrained by God from cursing Israel but even worse, he was "bullied" by God to bless Israel -- much to the chagrin of Balak.
But even before Balaam came along, God also "bullied" the pagan king Abimelech by restraining his evil intentions toward Sarah. But even more than this...God got the self-righteous king to admit to his own guilt re his evil intentions toward Abraham's wife and the king made restitution to Abraham.
For those of us who have eyes to see and ears to hear, we can clearly see a pattern that is common in these passages. In each case, God's grace functions in a negative and positive fashion. In every instance, God restrains evil and also powerfully effectuates good results which was God's ultimate purpose. In Jonah's case, God effectually protected and preserved Jonah by punishing his disobedience and disloyalty to God, which ultimately resulted in Jonah's final obedience to God's commission which in turn resulted in the salvation of many Ninevites. In Balaam's case, God restrained the prophet's madness which resulted in his positive blessings upon Israel. And in Abimelech's situation God thwarted the king's evil designs upon Sarah while also elciting a confession from the king along with him making restitution to Abraham for his offense against Sarah.
In fact, we can even see this identical pattern in Joseph's life, as well. God ordained all the evil that Josephs' brothers initiated against him but utlimately it all turned out for good since God also had decreed that Joseph protect and preserve Jacob and his entire family from a severe famine by providing safe haven for them in Egypt.
So...for you FWers who think that God would never "bully" anyone into submission to do his will, I strongly suspect that you will never be happy in the visible, eternal, sin-free Kingdom since no one will ever be able to think, speak or act against God's holy, righteous, good and perfect will. FWers would be far more at home where one could obstenstibly "freely" choose to do good or evil in that burning lake of sulfur instead of implicitly trusting in God's goodness, faithfulness, holiness and love to rule your life.
Yup! Good catch! Once again, we can see the identical pattern being played out in Nebuchadnezzar's case. First, God restrained the madness of the king's pride and arrogance and this resulted in a positive result, for the king confessed his sin, repented of it and acknowledged God as the supreme, sovereign Ruler of the universe! The king at the end of his 7 years of judgment praised, honored and glorified God.
While I can't be dogmatic about this, it's difficult for me to not conclude that God's visited his great salvation upon this king.
I have another example to offer; this one from the NT that also fits this negative-positive Grace paradigm of God, which I'll share a little later.
While I can't be dogmatic about this, it's difficult for me to not conclude that God's visited his great salvation upon this king.
I have another example to offer; this one from the NT that also fits this negative-positive Grace paradigm of God, which I'll share a little later.
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You have your nose so firmly implanted into a tree trunk, you cannot see the beauty, majesty and grandeur of the forest. You, too, have no spiritual ability to see that at end of the day in all these OT examples, it was God's will that prevailed. HIS PERFECT, HOLY, RIGHTEOUS will was flawlessly executed to accomplish his redemptive purposes. And in each case, no one complained that God forced, coerced or bullied them into submission.
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GWH pong
Actually, in this latest round with your second teaching re: Irresistible Grace, I asked you at first some very simple questions about your confused mess of teaching which you didn't answer at all. It's your typical m.o. to find some excuse not to actually deal with Scripture.
I think it's pretty clear who the master taunter is here as your latest taunt in #14,210 mildly exemplifies. It's all some sense of personal superiority from personal weakness, inability in interpreting Scripture and rather mastering in eisegesis and fallacious argumentation including basic trash-talk. As has been established, you've pretty much been rejected from discussions even within your own camp. It's clear why.
My recommending you don't answer me is both for your own sake, which you're in a sense basically doing already through the mastering of the just stated techniques, but even further for you and for the rest of us to extend this into silencing the nastiness and simply posting from Scripture. I'm happy to respond accordingly.
Actually, in this latest round with your second teaching re: Irresistible Grace, I asked you at first some very simple questions about your confused mess of teaching which you didn't answer at all. It's your typical m.o. to find some excuse not to actually deal with Scripture.
I think it's pretty clear who the master taunter is here as your latest taunt in #14,210 mildly exemplifies. It's all some sense of personal superiority from personal weakness, inability in interpreting Scripture and rather mastering in eisegesis and fallacious argumentation including basic trash-talk. As has been established, you've pretty much been rejected from discussions even within your own camp. It's clear why.
My recommending you don't answer me is both for your own sake, which you're in a sense basically doing already through the mastering of the just stated techniques, but even further for you and for the rest of us to extend this into silencing the nastiness and simply posting from Scripture. I'm happy to respond accordingly.
Whenever you get personal in your written assault towards me I understand how much truth really tears you apart. You only truly attempt to belittle someone whenever they can show validity and Scriptural fact. I was raised on the Tanakh and had privilege to the original language being used to understand the key word meaning based upon the Numerical Values knowing that each Hebrew Letter [22] also equals a numerical number that must match 100%
But in this particular subject all one has to do is read the whole story. Much like saying God hardened Pharaohs heart but you read Pharaoh first hardened his own heart several times and then God made it permanent. But Pharaoh did it free will before God made it permanent. And that's what you hate most. Hence why you have attacked me like you did because I am correct and nothing you can do but throw a hissy fit and call me names
But in this particular subject all one has to do is read the whole story. Much like saying God hardened Pharaohs heart but you read Pharaoh first hardened his own heart several times and then God made it permanent. But Pharaoh did it free will before God made it permanent. And that's what you hate most. Hence why you have attacked me like you did because I am correct and nothing you can do but throw a hissy fit and call me names
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I haven't seen anyone who opposes your interpretive tradition say that God does not intervene and force certain things to take place in human history. In fact, other non-TULIP traditions have excellent teachings on how God intervened in human history at times to do certain things to direct history as He wills.
The issue is that you're positing these events as substantiating TULIPism's Irresistible Grace in the individual salvation of all men, when:
The issue is that you're positing these events as substantiating TULIPism's Irresistible Grace in the individual salvation of all men, when:
- Jonah was a Prophet of God Matt12:39; Matt16:4; Luke11:29 and what God did with His Prophet does not establish Irresistible Grace in the individual salvation of all men.
- Abraham:
- Abraham was in covenant with God and had received many promises from God including Sarah bearing him an [historically important] heir well before Gen20 where Abraham encountered Abimelech. It's estimated that from the cutting of the covenant with Abraham to this encounter with Abimelech was about 14 years.
- At the Abimelech event God is in covenant with Abraham and protecting him and Sarah to bring about what God has promised him that would ultimately affect us all.
- Earlier in this thread this situation and Scripture re: Abimelech was discussed including how God interacted with Abimelech assessing his heart, and how God was dealing with Abimelech's kingdom, and how God threatened Abimelech in a dream with death for taking Sarah.
- As was previously discussed, this does not establish Irresistible Grace in the individual salvation of all men.
- Balaam: the point being made is without Scripture reference and thus too vague.
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