Understanding God’s election

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studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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My views on election are not that God "selects" as some propose. Rather, that God chose a people for Himself before creation itself. He doesn't select between different people. He chose before any came to be.
Can you elaborate?

Does He work on everyone's heart, or just some?

You make a good point about removing obstacles in children's lives that hinder their belief, whether they be in their understanding or circumstances. But if you believe salvation occurs when God approaches men and not the converse, who can keep God from coming to an individual. So I look for God to be at work and join Him in what He is doing. I look for times when their hearts are open and their minds are engaged. And I have seen markers in all my kids lives where God is working and revealing Himself to them
One of my questions was about the absolute authority of God and His Christ. I'm not sure I understood your answer. As time in His Word has progressed, and maybe even early on in my Faith, which I didn't come to until sometime in my mid to late 30's as I recall, I had an inherent understanding that He is the ultimate and absolute authority of all.

I had a talk with a couple old guys (older than me) recently, both unbelievers whom I've known for decades now but don't see often. They are both ex-military and one, a Marine is quick to remind me there are no ex-Marines. They both understand authority structures. They both know who and what I am. When a conversation came around to it and I sensed the opening provided, I found my discussion going to the authority of Christ and I made that very simple for them and Christianity very simple for them from the standpoint that this all boils down to believing who He is, the absolute authority in Heaven and on earth, and submitting to Him in that Faith for the salvation and eternality only He offers and provides. They know the death, burial, and resurrection. They have not accepted the foundation, which I gave them.

By one of the stories one of them had to catch me up on, I could tell that God is tapping him on the shoulder pretty profoundly if not slapping him upside the head. The other one I sense nothing. I've had talks in the past with both, but from different approaches as I recall.

One of the reasons I asked you about the authority issue and making it clear, is that I have come to place strong emphasis on things like Jesus' teaching early in His ministry per John4:23-26 where an unfortunate translation as "worship" is consistently taking place of a word that means to bow in obeisance. It's a word about reverent submission, in context it's true submission, and it is the most heavily emphasized teaching by Jesus in a few verses that we have in the NC due to how many times Jesus used that word in just a few verses. He made emphatic and vitally clear who God is seeking on this earth.

In large part, my view at this juncture is that those who have heard and do not and have not believed are very simply those who are not ready to submit to Him for who He actually is.

My friends after decades are still not there. From what I know of their lives and interests I have at least an opinion why this is.

Not wanting this to be experience leading Truth I'll say this anyway, I'm not a pushy evangelist. I try to follow any leading of His Spirit in any situation. I think that lead was given in this recent event. I followed it. We made certain things about Him very clear. and very simple. It was rejected. I don't lay this rejection on God but on men, and as I said, I can see some things that would cause this rejection, and it basically boils down to autonomy for various reasons, at least in one. The other has one of the more intense backgrounds in war that I've ever personally heard. In the end, there's still autonomy and its indications are not that difficult to pick up on.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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God knew what Pharaoh would do before He Spoke the Universe into existence. But we also know how Moses tells us the story and Pharaoh hardened his heart before God does it for him.
So, again -- If what you say is true, then why would God want or need to harden the king's heart, since Pharaoh's evil will was perfect in line with God's? What is the purpose behind God's hardening what is already hardened? :rolleyes:

Also, you still haven't provided any biblical proof that Pharaoh beat God to the punch by hardening his own heart. Since you have all this backwards, you likely believe that God's ways or steps are not in Himself but are determined by the Pharaoh's of the world. Apparently, you and Studier and others have never read:

Prov 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
NIV


As biblical narratives are most prone (indeed designed) to do, they provide solid examples to biblical doctrines. You might wanna also check out these companion, complementary texts to the above:

Prov 16:1
1 To man belong the plans of the heart,
but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.

NIV

Prov 16:9
9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines [or directs] his steps.

NIV

Prov 19:21
21 Many are the plans in a man's heart,
but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

NIV

Prov 20:24
24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand his own way?

NIV

Jer 10:23
23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.

NIV

Dan 5:23
23 Instead, you have set yourself up against the Lord of heaven. You had the goblets from his temple brought to you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines drank wine from them. You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand
. But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways.
NIV
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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597
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@Cameron143 Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. My Children know this to the point that they say, "Quit it dad!"

I DO NOT believe that "some" of my children can't hear and believe this Message.

He convicts/convinces the WORLD of their sin.......And I have the privilege to HELP.
Each and every person in the world? Even the ones God has given over to a reprobate mind?
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
3,588
753
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Pure nonsense. The narrative's chronology tells us which came first: God's hardening or Pharaohs'. Not only does the chronology of the passage tell us but the dictates of logic also inform our interpretation. Why would God want or need to harden Pharaoh's heart if the king was going to oblige God by doing it for Him!? :rolleyes:
As @lrs68 pointed out in another post, the hardening is a process, and God ultimately took control of that process ensuring it would be right where it needed to be when it needed to be there to accomplish God's purposes.

It's very easy to see in the first 3 chapters who God was dealing with before Ex4:21 which does not say that God would be the one who initially made Pharoah's heart hardened. That has to be read into the narrative which very easily reveals a hard heart, to say the least, before Ex4:21.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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God used Pharaoh and the position and idealism behind what Egypt and Pharaoh meant to the known world to show how powerful God was. But Pharaoh still hardened his own heart before God permanently did it.
So...you are now conceding that God chose to not have mercy and compassion on Pharaoh, right?

But I'm still waiting for an intelligent, coherent, rational answer to my question: Why would God want or need to harden a heart that the king himself had already hardened? Why was it necessary for God to double down on poor ol' Pharaoh overworked, hardened heart?
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
4,738
597
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As @lrs68 pointed out in another post, the hardening is a process, and God ultimately took control of that process ensuring it would be right where it needed to be when it needed to be there to accomplish God's purposes.

It's very easy to see in the first 3 chapters who God was dealing with before Ex4:21 which does not say that God would be the one who initially made Pharoah's heart hardened. That has to be read into the narrative which very easily reveals a hard heart, to say the least, before Ex4:21.
Well then... it should be a cake walk for you to provide the proof text(s) prior to Ex 4:21 that support your theory. And try not to wimp out on me the way you did with Jer 13:23. :rolleyes:

And then, Einstein, answer these questions, as well: When did God turn the hearts of the Egyptians to hate Abraham's descendants (Ps 105:25)? Did he turn their hearts after they decided for themselves to hate the Hebrew slaves or before? Or did he turn the hearts of the Egyptians to hate the Hebrews before or after Pharaoh hated the Hebrews and hardened his own heart?
 

lrs68

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2024
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So, again -- If what you say is true, then why would God want or need to harden the king's heart, since Pharaoh's evil will was perfect in line with God's? What is the purpose behind God's hardening what is already hardened? :rolleyes:

Also, you still haven't provided any biblical proof that Pharaoh beat God to the punch by hardening his own heart. Since you have all this backwards, you likely believe that God's ways or steps are not in Himself but are determined by the Pharaoh's of the world. Apparently, you and Studier and others have never read:

Prov 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
NIV


As biblical narratives are most prone (indeed designed) to do, they provide solid examples to biblical doctrines. You might wanna also check out these companion, complementary texts to the above:

Prov 16:1
1 To man belong the plans of the heart,
but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.

NIV

Prov 16:9
9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines [or directs] his steps.

NIV

Prov 19:21
21 Many are the plans in a man's heart,
but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

NIV

Prov 20:24
24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand his own way?

NIV

Jer 10:23
23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.

NIV

Dan 5:23
23 Instead, you have set yourself up against the Lord of heaven. You had the goblets from his temple brought to you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines drank wine from them. You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand
. But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways.
NIV
He hardened it after Pharaoh hardened his own heart to finish his life.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
3,588
753
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Learn the difference alreadyh between "should" (denoting responsibility) and "would" (denoting a willful act). There's nothing in the passage that speaks to man's spiritual innate ability.
Once again, both should and would are not in the original language even though they are both in translations:

NET Acts 17:27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope around96 for him and find him,97 though he is98 not far from each one of us.

ESV Acts 17:27 that they should seek God, band perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

Others get closer to the Greek:

NLT Acts 17:27 "His purpose was for the nations to seek after God and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him -- though he is not far from any one of us.

YLT Acts 17:27 to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, -- though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us,

There's nothing in the passage that speaks to man's spiritual innate ability.
Actually, there is something in the language that may well suggest ability. It's in the verb structure for "grope" and "find" and it's a pretty technical discussion. All 4 of the above translations also pick up the concept of "perhaps" which suggests it may happen. It's actually pretty interesting language that on the one hand attacks Greek reasoning abilities which was so valued among them and on the other hand at the same time suggests a possibility - maybe even a challenge - that they can grope (seek) and find God who as Paul says is not far away from each one of us.
 

lrs68

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2024
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So...you are now conceding that God chose to not have mercy and compassion on Pharaoh, right?

But I'm still waiting for an intelligent, coherent, rational answer to my question: Why would God want or need to harden a heart that the king himself had already hardened? Why was it necessary for God to double down on poor ol' Pharaoh overworked, hardened heart?
God knows the heart and minds of everyone and He uses that for His purpose. He used the Pharaoh to promote Joseph and this Pharaoh to destroy Egypt. God knew the choices they would make and He used it to benefit the Hebrew People in both scenarios. He used both Pharaoh's free will to promote and to free His people.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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Well @Kroogz I must say this approach regarding the Gospel message and one's children is probably the most depressing thing I have read on this thread.
I am confident that the Gospel message is preached to those kids.( He never fails to convict/convince us of His Cross.)

Behind closed doors , Every calvie here tries to convince the ones they love to trust Christ.

But, in the debate realm, they try to convince us of their theology.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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He hardened it after Pharaoh hardened his own heart to finish his life.
Demonstrating that God had neither compassion or mercy on Pharaoh, did He?

But your answer begs the question: Are you trying to tell us that Pharaoh did a really poor job in hardening his own heart, so God had to step in to complete Pharaoh's lousy work? But if this is the case, how does God's sovereign act square with FWT that says God treats all people EQUALLY and FAIRLY because he doesn't want anyone to perish eternally? If Pharaoh did such a poor job that required God to clean up Pharaoh's messy hardening work, then God decreed his eternal damnation up the king! If God had not intruded upon Pharaoh's life, the king might have had a chance to repent and believe in the God of the Hebrews.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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God knows the heart and minds of everyone and He uses that for His purpose. He used the Pharaoh to promote Joseph and this Pharaoh to destroy Egypt. God knew the choices they would make and He used it to benefit the Hebrew People in both scenarios. He used both Pharaoh's free will to promote and to free His people.
So, God knew that all Egypt would grow to hate the Hebrews (Ps 105:25), so why did God have to harden the hearts of the Egyptians and their king? Maybe their hatred didn't run deep enough?
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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Well then... it should be a cake walk for you to provide the proof text(s) prior to Ex 4:21 that support your theory
Already noted. Read the first 3 chapters of Ex and see if you think Pharoah did not have a hard heart before Ex4:21. You can begin in Ex1:8 and the narrative already beginning to explain it in the next verse. The progress @lrs68 spoke of begins there and the degenerative hardening is developed quite clearly in the narrative.

But I'm still waiting for an intelligent, coherent, rational answer to my question: Why would God want or need to harden a heart that the king himself had already hardened?
Also already noted.

Just as in the Jer13 discussion, it's fully understood that you reject all input that doesn't match your desired view. Nevertheless, it's been given and there's no reason to keep repeating it for you.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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597
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Once again, both should and would are not in the original language even though they are both in translations:

NET Acts 17:27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope around96 for him and find him,97 though he is98 not far from each one of us.

ESV Acts 17:27 that they should seek God, band perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

Others get closer to the Greek:

NLT Acts 17:27 "His purpose was for the nations to seek after God and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him -- though he is not far from any one of us.

YLT Acts 17:27 to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, -- though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us,



Actually, there is something in the language that may well suggest ability. It's in the verb structure for "grope" and "find" and it's a pretty technical discussion. All 4 of the above translations also pick up the concept of "perhaps" which suggests it may happen. It's actually pretty interesting language that on the one hand attacks Greek reasoning abilities which was so valued among them and on the other hand at the same time suggests a possibility - maybe even a challenge - that they can grope (seek) and find God who as Paul says is not far away from each one of us.
But on the other hand, no one seeks after God per Rom 3:11. Tell me: Did A&E, after they sinned, seek after God? If not, what makes you think that any of their progeny would inherently have any desire in the evil hearts to do so?
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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And then, Einstein, answer these questions, as well: When did God turn the hearts of the Egyptians to hate Abraham's descendants (Ps 105:25)? Did he turn their hearts after they decided for themselves to hate the Hebrew slaves or before? Or did he turn the hearts of the Egyptians to hate the Hebrews before or after Pharaoh hated the Hebrews and hardened his own heart?
Why don't you go back to Exodus and make your case and I and maybe others will respond to you. If you read Ex1 and pay close attention there while you're reading Ex1-3 to better understand Ex4:21, you may pick up what Ps105:24-25 are referring to.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Already noted. Read the first 3 chapters of Ex and see if you think Pharoah did not have a hard heart before Ex4:21. You can begin in Ex1:8 and the narrative already beginning to explain it in the next verse. The progress @lrs68 spoke of begins there and the degenerative hardening is developed quite clearly in the narrative.



Also already noted.

Just as in the Jer13 discussion, it's fully understood that you reject all input that doesn't match your desired view. Nevertheless, it's been given and there's no reason to keep repeating it for you.
I have read those chapters and don't see in them what you claim. But what is developed quite nicely and EXPLICITLY in the narrative is that the first explicit mention of "hardening" speaks to God's hardening activities. So, give me the specific proof texts within those first three chapters that would tell me that Pharaoh hardened his heart first. And don't forget to factor in Ps 105:25 into the equation.

Re Jer 13:23, I'm not looking for ALL [your] input on the passage. I'm looking for a simple one word answer to the rhetorical question. You obviously have no spiritual ability to give that answer, do you? Maybe God has hardened your heart to the extent that you can't give such a easy answer?
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Why don't you go back to Exodus and make your case and I and maybe others will respond to you. If you read Ex1 and pay close attention there while you're reading Ex1-3 to better understand Ex4:21, you may pick up what Ps105:24-25 are referring to.
I already made my case months ago with the Exodus narrative. Give me the proof texts in Ex 1-3 that teach that Pharaoh hated the Hebrews first and he hardened his own heart first.

Plus you keep ignoring the fact that man's ways are not in himself! God directs all our steps!

Also, you ignore the fact that God's will is NOT contingent on what man decides (Eph 1:11). God works all things according to the counsel of his own will and not according to acts he "foresees" in people.