Understanding God’s election
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God is Omnipresence, Omnipotent, and Omniscient. That means He knows everything, He is everywhere, He is all powerful.
Part of the definition to Omniscient is foreknowledge.
So how does having these attributes equal to making something happen?
I want to know how does being Omniscient having foreknowledge automatically mean making something happen?
What kind of human illogic is that?
That is like saying the rain clouds are gray so rain drops have to be gray because they come from the gray rain clouds...
Part of the definition to Omniscient is foreknowledge.
So how does having these attributes equal to making something happen?
I want to know how does being Omniscient having foreknowledge automatically mean making something happen?
What kind of human illogic is that?
That is like saying the rain clouds are gray so rain drops have to be gray because they come from the gray rain clouds...
Yup it is. Now I will thoroughly debunk your lame eisegesis of Ex 4ff.
Despite your argument to the contrary, Ex 1-3 that mostly deals with the Hebrews past history has nothing to do with the hardened heart of Pharaoh. The only way these three chapters could logically be connected to God's words to Moses in Ex 4ff. is if Moses himself existed 400 years ago when the Hebrews first settled in Egypt. Your exegetical skills are as pathetic as your math skills are! Because the timeline in Ex 4ff. is an inconvenient truth to you, you try to integrate the 400 years of past, historic misery, mistreatment and oppression of the Hebrews with God's decree against Pharaoh which was revealed to Moses about 400 years AFTER the Hebrews had already suffered the bulk of their enslavement and abuse by the Egyptians, etc.. To begin with, you conveniently ignore the verb tenses to passages, such as:
Ex 4:21
21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I WILL harden his heart so that he WILL not let the people go.
NIV
"But I WILL..." as in future tense. Hardening of the king's heart was in the futures of Moses and Pharaoh -- and not in the past historic treatment of the Hebrews! Yes, the Hebrews were treated very poorly by the Egyptians for 400 years because God had decreed/predicted this mistreatment and Egypt's future punishment for their actions long before Moses or Pharaoh existed (Gen 15:12-13). And the Egyptians willingly fulfilled God's prophecy against them, proving again that man's will is always compatible with God's! Moreover, they willingly fulfilled the prophecy because God had turned the Egyptians' hearts to hate the Hebrews (Ps 105:25)!
You also willfully ignore the sole reason for the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. Again, the reason had nothing to do with the Hebrews past mistreatment but what God's will was for them going forward -- into their immediate future. And what was in the immediate future of the Hebrews if not freedom from their bondage to the Egyptians? God's hardening of Pharaoh's heart was connected solely to their exodus/flight out of Egypt and not their past 400-years of bitter experience. Verse 21 above doesn't say anything about the Hebrews' past but it does definitely speak to their immediate future, i.e. "...he WILL not let the people go".
Then we have these two supporting passages, as well:
Ex 7:12-14, 22
12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh's heart BECAME hard and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.
14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is unyielding; he refuses to let the people go
22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh's heart BECAME hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.
NIV
When did Pharaoh's heart "become hard: 400 years ago before he existed!? Or did it become hardened during Moses' time and when Pharaoh also actually existed? (Rhetorical question, which I know you hate.) Also, note the verb tense of "is unyielding" that speaks to Pharaoh's present heart condition and experience with Moses! And when did Pharaoh refuse to let the people go: Before Moses came on the scene or during Moses' confrontation with Pharaoh? (Another rhetorical question!) And note again the inextricable link between Pharaoh's hard heart and the Hebrews impending exodus/flight from Egypt.
Thirdly, your appeal to the first 3 chapters in Exodus is further weakened because you conveniently ignore verses that speak to future action God would be taking. Not everything in these three chapters is in the past, to wit:
Ex 3:18-22
18 "The elders of Israel WILL listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God.' 19 But I know that the king of Egypt WILL not [in the immediate future] let you go unless a mighty hand COMPELS him. 20 So I WILL [in the immediate future] stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I WILL [soon] perform among them. After that, he WILL [shortly] let you go.
21 "And I WILL [in the immediate future] make the Egyptians favorably disposed toward this people, so that when you leave you will not go empty-handed. 22 Every woman is to ask her neighbor and any woman living in her house for articles of silver and gold and for clothing, which you will put on your sons and daughters. And so you WILL [in the immediate future] plunder the Egyptians."
Oh my...once again we encounter the "Big Bad Bully" in the sky. It appears God "forced" Pharaoh to bend his will to His! He did the same thing with Ambimelech, Balaam, Joseph, Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus and even Eve in the Garden. And this is just a short list!
In case, you're wondering v. 19 in the literal NASB reads, "But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go, except under compulsion". Or the YLT for this verse reads: "And I - that the king of Egypt doth not permit you to go, unless by a strong hand."
Explain to me, Mr. Studier, how the Exodus account is not a prime example of the truths taught in Prov 16:1, 9, 19:21; 20:24; 21:1; Jer 10:23; Dan 5:23. Meanwhile, though, pull both planks out from your eyes so that you can see your own hypocrisy when you wrongfully accuse me of interpreting scripture using the eisegesis method. You, GWH and others here desperately need to spend at least a thousand hours or so in a good Reformed hermenetics class to learn how to exegete scripture properly.
Despite your argument to the contrary, Ex 1-3 that mostly deals with the Hebrews past history has nothing to do with the hardened heart of Pharaoh. The only way these three chapters could logically be connected to God's words to Moses in Ex 4ff. is if Moses himself existed 400 years ago when the Hebrews first settled in Egypt. Your exegetical skills are as pathetic as your math skills are! Because the timeline in Ex 4ff. is an inconvenient truth to you, you try to integrate the 400 years of past, historic misery, mistreatment and oppression of the Hebrews with God's decree against Pharaoh which was revealed to Moses about 400 years AFTER the Hebrews had already suffered the bulk of their enslavement and abuse by the Egyptians, etc.. To begin with, you conveniently ignore the verb tenses to passages, such as:
Ex 4:21
21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I WILL harden his heart so that he WILL not let the people go.
NIV
"But I WILL..." as in future tense. Hardening of the king's heart was in the futures of Moses and Pharaoh -- and not in the past historic treatment of the Hebrews! Yes, the Hebrews were treated very poorly by the Egyptians for 400 years because God had decreed/predicted this mistreatment and Egypt's future punishment for their actions long before Moses or Pharaoh existed (Gen 15:12-13). And the Egyptians willingly fulfilled God's prophecy against them, proving again that man's will is always compatible with God's! Moreover, they willingly fulfilled the prophecy because God had turned the Egyptians' hearts to hate the Hebrews (Ps 105:25)!
You also willfully ignore the sole reason for the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. Again, the reason had nothing to do with the Hebrews past mistreatment but what God's will was for them going forward -- into their immediate future. And what was in the immediate future of the Hebrews if not freedom from their bondage to the Egyptians? God's hardening of Pharaoh's heart was connected solely to their exodus/flight out of Egypt and not their past 400-years of bitter experience. Verse 21 above doesn't say anything about the Hebrews' past but it does definitely speak to their immediate future, i.e. "...he WILL not let the people go".
Then we have these two supporting passages, as well:
Ex 7:12-14, 22
12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh's heart BECAME hard and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.
14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is unyielding; he refuses to let the people go
22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh's heart BECAME hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.
NIV
When did Pharaoh's heart "become hard: 400 years ago before he existed!? Or did it become hardened during Moses' time and when Pharaoh also actually existed? (Rhetorical question, which I know you hate.) Also, note the verb tense of "is unyielding" that speaks to Pharaoh's present heart condition and experience with Moses! And when did Pharaoh refuse to let the people go: Before Moses came on the scene or during Moses' confrontation with Pharaoh? (Another rhetorical question!) And note again the inextricable link between Pharaoh's hard heart and the Hebrews impending exodus/flight from Egypt.
Thirdly, your appeal to the first 3 chapters in Exodus is further weakened because you conveniently ignore verses that speak to future action God would be taking. Not everything in these three chapters is in the past, to wit:
Ex 3:18-22
18 "The elders of Israel WILL listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God.' 19 But I know that the king of Egypt WILL not [in the immediate future] let you go unless a mighty hand COMPELS him. 20 So I WILL [in the immediate future] stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I WILL [soon] perform among them. After that, he WILL [shortly] let you go.
21 "And I WILL [in the immediate future] make the Egyptians favorably disposed toward this people, so that when you leave you will not go empty-handed. 22 Every woman is to ask her neighbor and any woman living in her house for articles of silver and gold and for clothing, which you will put on your sons and daughters. And so you WILL [in the immediate future] plunder the Egyptians."
Oh my...once again we encounter the "Big Bad Bully" in the sky. It appears God "forced" Pharaoh to bend his will to His! He did the same thing with Ambimelech, Balaam, Joseph, Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus and even Eve in the Garden. And this is just a short list!
In case, you're wondering v. 19 in the literal NASB reads, "But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go, except under compulsion". Or the YLT for this verse reads: "And I - that the king of Egypt doth not permit you to go, unless by a strong hand."
Explain to me, Mr. Studier, how the Exodus account is not a prime example of the truths taught in Prov 16:1, 9, 19:21; 20:24; 21:1; Jer 10:23; Dan 5:23. Meanwhile, though, pull both planks out from your eyes so that you can see your own hypocrisy when you wrongfully accuse me of interpreting scripture using the eisegesis method. You, GWH and others here desperately need to spend at least a thousand hours or so in a good Reformed hermenetics class to learn how to exegete scripture properly.
And?
Just examining your statement standalone without due regard for any other associated biblical factors, qualifications or clarifications - given that God is God - and based solely upon that - does He not have the right, authority, power and privilege to be a dictator, or does He first require man's approval and permission to be so? So, what do you think, is it, yes, He needs it, or no, He doesn't, which?
Just examining your statement standalone without due regard for any other associated biblical factors, qualifications or clarifications - given that God is God - and based solely upon that - does He not have the right, authority, power and privilege to be a dictator, or does He first require man's approval and permission to be so? So, what do you think, is it, yes, He needs it, or no, He doesn't, which?
And as we both know this is where we disagree.
My view of Scripture is that God has taken the initial actions in giving men certain knowledge of Himself, His Law, a conscience that is aware of good & evil as Paul says of the work of Law in men, of judgment, knowledge of His Son, His Spirit at work convincing, and other things such as in Ecc3:11 which has some interpretive issues. Even built into Jesus' title - YHWH's Anointed - is authority, the ownership of the earth, the King above all kings (Ps2). Man has all he needs and the resident ability to hear and learn from God and believe.
Again, not meaning to belabor what I've said, the foundational issue between men and God is authority orientation and a willingness in men to submit to His absolute authority as Jesus clearly says God is seeking in men. A child can be taught to understand this concept and can be shown in practice what loving and benevolent authority in submission to God looks like to some imperfect degree and what loving discipline is for rebellion.
IMO, we make this more difficult than it is and part of this is due to men's interpretations of His Word.
My view of Scripture is that God has taken the initial actions in giving men certain knowledge of Himself, His Law, a conscience that is aware of good & evil as Paul says of the work of Law in men, of judgment, knowledge of His Son, His Spirit at work convincing, and other things such as in Ecc3:11 which has some interpretive issues. Even built into Jesus' title - YHWH's Anointed - is authority, the ownership of the earth, the King above all kings (Ps2). Man has all he needs and the resident ability to hear and learn from God and believe.
Again, not meaning to belabor what I've said, the foundational issue between men and God is authority orientation and a willingness in men to submit to His absolute authority as Jesus clearly says God is seeking in men. A child can be taught to understand this concept and can be shown in practice what loving and benevolent authority in submission to God looks like to some imperfect degree and what loving discipline is for rebellion.
IMO, we make this more difficult than it is and part of this is due to men's interpretations of His Word.
Jesus said not all hear but you disagree?
Jesus made it known He was speaking to those with ears to hear.
Your claim is that is everyone hears, while Jesus disagrees.
He claimed to open the eyes of the blind also.
It seems some only take that to mean physically.
Such a shame that the spiritual aspect of God's work is given such short shrift.
from Revelation 3 verse 17-18 ~ You say, ‘I need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Jesus made it known He was speaking to those with ears to hear.
Your claim is that is everyone hears, while Jesus disagrees.
He claimed to open the eyes of the blind also.
It seems some only take that to mean physically.
Such a shame that the spiritual aspect of God's work is given such short shrift.
from Revelation 3 verse 17-18 ~ You say, ‘I need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Ah...the truth comes out! Thank you for unwittingly having an honest moment. You believe in a works-based salvation -- as long as people do their best -- as if man's best would ever be good enough to earn God's favor. Don't you know that man's [best] righteousness is as filthy rags in the eyes of God (Isa 64:6)?
God is Omnipresence, Omnipotent, and Omniscient. That means He knows everything, He is everywhere, He is all powerful.
Part of the definition to Omniscient is foreknowledge.
So how does having these attributes equal to making something happen?
I want to know how does being Omniscient having foreknowledge automatically mean making something happen?
What kind of human illogic is that?
That is like saying the rain clouds are gray so rain drops have to be gray because they come from the gray rain clouds...
Part of the definition to Omniscient is foreknowledge.
So how does having these attributes equal to making something happen?
I want to know how does being Omniscient having foreknowledge automatically mean making something happen?
What kind of human illogic is that?
That is like saying the rain clouds are gray so rain drops have to be gray because they come from the gray rain clouds...