Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

So you do not have a verse in scripture to support your question then.

A verse to support a theological question???? So...if you're presenting the Gospel to an unbeliever and they ask you a question, you answer their question with the one you have presented above? The unbeliever has to search the bible with which he's unfamiliar to come up with a supporting verse before you answer him??? Oy, Vey!

 

[Rufus]

Not sure what the preceding impasse involves, but hopefully the following will help get past it:

Volition (MFW) only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God.

The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.

God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.

Yeah...that's all well and good but the volition is located in the spiritually dead heart which is totally corrupt. This is why God needed to give his elect a new heart under the New Covenant.

 

[Rufus]

Rich means better than material wealth.

If Adam hadn't sinned, you and I would still have sinned, let's not kid ourselves.

I haven't lost that bet, so maybe you will need to pay off by saying what I actually said. (Feel free to quote me :^)

Yeah...but you're betting with filthy lucre. I doubt seriously, money will even exist in eternity.

Also, if Adam had not sinned, none of us would have sinned because he would have passed the test! And as our Federal Head, we (being in him!) would have reaped the reward he would have. The test of faith only applied to A&E.

 

[Genez]

Grace is irresistible in Salvation ! All saints going to sin, that's just part of still having to deal with the flesh, so Grace reigns regardless if a saint still sins.

You can not tell me, or anyone... what irresistible grace is doing when someone gets saved.
It suddenly turns theoretical with an appeal to human reasoning.

Irresistible grace was an invention by certain Calvinists (Theodore Beza's sect) to answer a mystifying question.
Provide an answer in a similar manner as the Vatican had invented immaculate conception as to explain the sinless body of Jesus.
Even to this day, faithful Catholics will repeat the concept of immaculate conception as if it were Gospel truth.
Just like you do with irresistible grace. Why? Because you don't know the real answer.

 

[Rufus]

That's precisely where the Calvinist get's off the road.

No one can not get saved without grace controlling the flesh, to give the soul a reprise of being dominated by the depravity.
Grace forces down the influence of the flesh so that a soul can choose in a state free of the sin nature.

Grace does not guarantee a person will choose to believe.
Grace only makes it possible to choose free of the depravity of the flesh.

Romans 1:18-23 shows how God took those who were to become the worst king of reprobate, and made his soul (by grace) able to see the truth. Truth about God that could have saved him concerning knowing God is real.

God was drawing them and making the needed truth KNOWN to them.
They they chose to recoil and suppress the truth they received...
And? For their rejection?
God judged them!


The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness
and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since
what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. (by grace!)

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature
—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became
fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being
and birds and animals and reptiles." Romans 1:18-23

In the same kind of drawing of men, others have found God, and believed!

Rom 1:18-23 is not dealing with Special Revelation (i.e. divinely inspired scriptures). It's dealing with Natural Revelation, i.e. the world around us -- the world that touches all our senses. And the passage clearly proves what scripture teaches in other places: The sons of men have NO HEART for God! The world HATES God and his Son, and this is why they suppress the truth in unrighteousness. This is why the world doesn't want to retain God in their knowledge. The depraved hearts of men have no loving disposition towards God.

 

[Rufus]

That's precisely where the Calvinist get's off the road.

No one can not get saved without grace controlling the flesh, to give the soul a reprise of being dominated by the depravity.
Grace forces down the influence of the flesh so that a soul can choose in a state free of the sin nature.

Grace does not guarantee a person will choose to believe.
Grace only makes it possible to choose free of the depravity of the flesh.

Romans 1:18-23 shows how God took those who were to become the worst king of reprobate, and made his soul (by grace) able to see the truth. Truth about God that could have saved him concerning knowing God is real.

God was drawing them and making the needed truth KNOWN to them.
They they chose to recoil and suppress the truth they received...
And? For their rejection?
God judged them!


The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness
and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since
what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. (by grace!)

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature
—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became
fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being
and birds and animals and reptiles." Romans 1:18-23

In the same kind of drawing of men, others have found God, and believed!

Rom 1:18-23 is not dealing with Special Revelation (i.e. divinely inspired scriptures). It's dealing with Natural Revelation, i.e. the world around us -- the world that touches all our senses. And the passage clearly proves what scripture teaches in other places: The sons of men have NO HEART for God! The world HATES God and his Son, and this is why they suppress the truth in unrighteousness. This is why the world doesn't want to retain God in their knowledge. The depraved hearts of men have no loving disposition towards God.

 

[Rufus]

You can not tell me, or anyone... what irresistible grace is doing when someone gets saved.
It suddenly turns theoretical with an appeal to human reasoning.

Irresistible grace was an invention by certain Calvinists (Theodore Beza's sect) to answer a mystifying question.
Provide an answer in a similar manner as the Vatican had invented immaculate conception as to explain the sinless body of Jesus.
Even to this day, faithful Catholics will repeat the concept of immaculate conception as if it were Gospel truth.
Just like you do with irresistible grace. Why? Because you don't know the real answer.

You need to read the promises of the unilateral New Covenant someday, especially the part that says, "I (GOD) will CAUSE you to walk in my statutes..."

Secondly, we don't have to know how God grace works in a soul. All we have to do is believe the Word of God.

Thirdly, we cannot comprehend the supernatural. God raised Jesus from the dead. Do you understand how God did that? Apparently, you must, presuming that you believe in the resurrection of Christ. So...since you do...why don't you explain that to us.

 

[Rufus]

Hosea 6:7
But like Adam, you broke my covenant and betrayed my trust.
Hosea 6:7
But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.

The prophet was referring to a person but to a city! Adam was a city in the ANE. Part b of the verse tells us that..."THERE THEY have...
The covenant THEY transgressed was the Old.

 

[Genez]

You need to read the promises of the unilateral New Covenant someday, especially the part that says, "I (GOD) will CAUSE you to walk in my statutes..."

That speaks of the Jews living on earth during the Millennium.

Ezekiel 36:20-27​

​

And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ​

‘These are the Lord’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ I had concern for my holy name, ​

which the people of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.​

​

“Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people ​

of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been ​

profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know ​

that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.​

​

“‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into ​

your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove ​

from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you​

to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.​

Last time I checked?
We are the Church.
Not the age of Israel Jews.

Get on the right page, please.

 

[brightfame52]

You can not tell me, or anyone... what irresistible grace is doing when someone gets saved.
It suddenly turns theoretical with an appeal to human reasoning.

Irresistible grace was an invention by certain Calvinists (Theodore Beza's sect) to answer a mystifying question.
Provide an answer in a similar manner as the Vatican had invented immaculate conception as to explain the sinless body of Jesus.
Even to this day, faithful Catholics will repeat the concept of immaculate conception as if it were Gospel truth.
Just like you do with irresistible grace. Why? Because you don't know the real answer.

Grace reigns through righteousness established by Jesus Christ our Lord Rom 5:21

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Genez]

Grace reigns through righteousness established by Jesus Christ our Lord Rom 5:21

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

ok ... that's fine in itself.

Did I miss the word "irresistible?"

Romans 5:21 does nothing to explain irresistible grace onto salvation.

 

[rogerg]

You need to read the promises of the unilateral New Covenant someday, especially the part that says, "I (GOD) will CAUSE you to walk in my statutes..."

Secondly, we don't have to know how God grace works in a soul. All we have to do is believe the Word of God.

Thirdly, we cannot comprehend the supernatural. God raised Jesus from the dead. Do you understand how God did that? Apparently, you must, presuming that you believe in the resurrection of Christ. So...since you do...why don't you explain that to us.

@brightfame52

Could @Genez actually be a bot?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

That speaks of the Jews living on earth during the Millennium.
Ezekiel 36:20-27

“‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into ​

your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove ​

from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you​

to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.​

.

That began to be fulfilled at Pentecost, is being fulfilled now and will continue until the lord returns with his resurrected children

 

[Magenta]

You need to read the promises of the unilateral New Covenant someday, especially the part that says, "I (GOD) will CAUSE you to walk in my statutes..."

Secondly, we don't have to know how God grace works in a soul. All we have to do is believe the Word of God.

Thirdly, we cannot comprehend the supernatural. God raised Jesus from the dead. Do you understand how God did that? Apparently, you must, presuming that you believe in the resurrection of Christ. So...since you do...why don't you explain that to us.

Thank you for that reminder

 

[Genez]

@brightfame52

Could @Genez actually be a bot?

Not bad...
After all?

The religious Pharisees saw Jesus as casting out demons by Beelzebub.

It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. ​

If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members ​

of his household! Matthew 10:25​

Sorry to see you being on the wrong side with this one....
Keep in mind. Peter was there at one time...

Now?

Which insult was the better?





How much more his true disciples?

 

[Genez]

That began to be fulfilled at Pentecost, is being fulfilled now and will continue until the lord returns with his resurrected children

NT Scripture was not yet known at Pentecost.

It's not as simple as you want it to be.
But, that does not mean that God can not make it simple for you...

If you are willing to grow.

 

[GWH]

Yeah...but you're betting with filthy lucre. I doubt seriously, money will even exist in eternity.

Also, if Adam had not sinned, none of us would have sinned because he would have passed the test! And as our Federal Head, we (being in him!) would have reaped the reward he would have. The test of faith only applied to A&E.

GW says all sin; A&E were merely the first, so don't try to use them as an excuse for your sin.

I doubt there will be filthy lucre in heaven.

 

[GWH]

Yeah...that's all well and good but the volition is located in the spiritually dead heart which is totally corrupt. This is why God needed to give his elect a new heart under the New Covenant.

Well, an all-loving God would have elected to give everyone a new heart, and on what just basis would He elect some rather than others?

 

[brightfame52]

ok ... that's fine in itself.

Did I miss the word "irresistible?"

Romans 5:21 does nothing to explain irresistible grace onto salvation.

Yes its as irresistible in its reign as death is irresistible in its reign. Can you with your own freewill resist death when its your time to die ?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

NT Scripture was not yet known at Pentecost.

It's not as simple as you want it to be.
But, that does not mean that God can not make it simple for you...

If you are willing to grow.

It is simple when you have the keys. Ezekiel prophesied under the Babylonian captivity. Every bit of what he prophesied was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. You can't realistically deny that all of these things happened. This was the day the sticks of Ephraim and Judah were joined together as one in the lord's hand

For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. Ezekiel 36:24-28​

​

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. Acts 2:1​

And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Acts 2:5​

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: Acts 2:14​

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Acts 2:22​

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Acts 2:41​