Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

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Aug 8, 2021
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The Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) and there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4). The Holy Ghost is also the Spirit (John 7:39).

This indicates to me that the Father and the Holy Ghost are the same Spirit...

And therefore if the Father is a Person, the Holy Ghost is also a Person.

This is where you are jumping to conclusions. You are assuming that spirit defines personhood.

And the word "ghost" there is the word "spirt". The Father is the person behind the spirit. It is HIS spirit. Just like I am the person behind MY spirit. It is not it's own person. It is part of me.
 

justbyfaith

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Sep 16, 2021
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It has been taught that we are a spirit, we have a soul, and we dwell in a body;

And I believe this to be sound doctrine.
 

BillG

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AA9DAE1F-1F23-4FBA-A9E3-2C67F050E22A.jpeg 3
3 parts but in 1.

It cleans - we are cleansed by the blood of Jesus.
It prevents rust (originally marketed as protects) we have the Holy Spirit in us who protects us.
It's a lubricant, cannot think of something to say on this.
 
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It has been taught that we are a spirit, we have a soul, and we dwell in a body;

And I believe this to be sound doctrine.

Right... but our soul and spirit together still just make us one person. Why does The Father and HIS spirit automatically mean two persons?
 

justbyfaith

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Sep 16, 2021
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Right... but our soul and spirit together still just make us one person. Why does The Father and HIS spirit automatically mean two persons?
It doesn't...

However, the LORD (Jehovah) inhabits eternity (Isaiah 57:15); and it should be clear that He incarnated to form the Person of the Son; who is distinct from that Spirit, who is without flesh, in that He is come in the flesh.

Thus, the one Spirit / Person descends and becomes a 2nd Person; who is the same Spirit / Person, albeit come in human flesh.
 
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It doesn't...

However, the LORD (Jehovah) inhabits eternity (Isaiah 57:15); and it should be clear that He incarnated to form the Person of the Son; who is distinct from that Spirit, who is without flesh, in that He is come in the flesh.

Thus, the one Spirit / Person descends and becomes a 2nd Person; who is the same Spirit / Person, albeit come in human flesh.



Your logic is severely flawed. Either a spirit is a person (one spirit equals one person).... or a spirit is not a person, yet can be accessed by multiple persons (three in the case of the trinity doctrine). You can't have it both ways.


You: "Thus, the one Spirit / Person descends and becomes a 2nd Person; who is the same Spirit"


If the three persons already existed in heaven, how does the spirit "become a 2nd person"?



To be a "person" requires an individual mind.... hence the word "personality". If a "spirit" is a "person", by definition it can not be more than one mind.

Jesus has a separate mind from his Father. This is how they communicate with each other and have individual thoughts. If spirit was a person, and they share one spirit, they would have one mind.



One of the issues with your doctrine is you taking the words "one spirit" too literal as well as limiting this spirit to the trinity you believe in:


1 Corinthians 6:16-17

16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.


Anyone can be part of this "one spirit". The Holy spirit is The Most High's spirit. The Messiah is "one" with his Father's spirit and want's us to become "one" with this spirit as well:


John 17:11

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


John 17:20-21

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.






PS: The Most High's name is not pronounced "Jehovah"
 

justbyfaith

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Sep 16, 2021
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If the three persons already existed in heaven, how does the spirit "become a 2nd person"?
Jesus was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35); and after He died on the Cross, He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10) to exist again outside of time (Isaiah 57:15) in the Person of the Holy Ghost; who is also able to descend to any place in time and indwell believers in the LORD of hosts, in all of His fulness (Ephesians 3:19-20, 1 Corinthians 6:17).

So, really, it was the 1st Person of the Trinity who descended and took on human flesh and who later ascended to exist outside of time.
 
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Jesus was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35); and after He died on the Cross, He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10) to exist again outside of time (Isaiah 57:15) in the Person of the Holy Ghost; who is also able to descend to any place in time and indwell believers in the LORD of hosts, in all of His fulness (Ephesians 3:19-20, 1 Corinthians 6:17).

So, really, it was the 1st Person of the Trinity who descended and took on human flesh and who later ascended to exist outside of time.
Lol.. this is just a complete mess and what you are saying needs to be speculated into the scriptures. None of the scriptures you are posting say the things you are inferring.
 
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How do you pronounce it?

You can take this to mean what you want, but I wouldn't tell you. You have have made other God's equal to him and said that He has a maker... I consider that putting His name in vain. I wouldn't share the actual pronunciation with someone with those beliefs.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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PS: The Most High's name is not pronounced "Jehovah"
The pronunciation is not critical. What is more critical is to believe that Jesus is Jehovah or Yehovah or Yahweh or YHWH (which you don't). The Jews say ha Shem (the Name) and do not pronounce YHWH.

Jesus said that He is I AM, and if you do not believe that He is I AM (YHWH Elohim = the LORD God) you shall die in your sins!
 
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The pronunciation is not critical. What is more critical is to believe that Jesus is Jehovah or Yehovah or Yahweh or YHWH (which you don't). The Jews say ha Shem (the Name) and do not pronounce YHWH.

Jesus said that He is I AM, and if you do not believe that He is I AM (YHWH Elohim = the LORD God) you shall die in your sins!

Those beliefs is why it's best that you don't know the name. My point exactly. You ignore Jesus saying his Father is greater than him... that his Father is all knowing and he isn't.... and The MOST HIGH (meaning above all) Himself saying He was above all Gods. It's good that you don't know the name, because your beliefs would cause you to take His name in vain.
 

justbyfaith

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Lol.. this is just a complete mess and what you are saying needs to be speculated into the scriptures. None of the scriptures you are posting say the things you are inferring.
Actually, they do say it...but you do not have eyes to see (2 Corinthians 4:3-4).
 

justbyfaith

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You ignore Jesus saying his Father is greater than him... that his Father is all knowing and he isn't...
This is not ignored...we simply see these verses in the proper perspective...as concerning the humanity of our Lord in the hypostatic union.
 
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Actually, they do say it...but you do not have eyes to see (2 Corinthians 4:3-4).
Just another case of you grabbing a verse out of context and applying it to your unscriptural beliefs. The gospel being "veiled" can apply to so many different topics in scripture, but you make it about the trinity. Expected.
 
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This is not ignored...we simply see these verses in the proper perspective...as concerning the humanity of our Lord in the hypostatic union.


Correction: "improper perspective"

The problem with trinitarians is whether intentional or subconsciously, they prioritize that church doctrine over the scriptures. Rather than test the doctrine against the most simple understanding of the writings, they create more complicated interpretations of scriptures (which the believers of that doctrine don't agree on) in order to try to make the doctrine work. Their priorities are simply in the wrong place.

More often than not, the simplest reading will be the correct one. So when studying scripture it makes the most sense to start with the the literal meaning of the text. You only begin to divert from the literal meaning when you have context that suggests it should not be taken literal (a vision, dream, parable, etc), or you have other examples where the same terminology is shown to be used figuratively.

Trinitarians do not follow these rules of textual criticism. "For the Father is Greater than I".... On it's own, the most simple and literal interpretation is clear. You then see the Messiah constantly giving The Father credit for what the Son does. The Messiah also says that only The Father is all-knowing (knows the hour). The Messiah prays to The Father and tells us to do the same. The Father refers to Himself as "The Most High".... hence "higher" than everything and everyone. The Father says He is "above all Gods".

None of that evidence is taken literal and in it's most simple interpretation by trinitarians. However, they can take a phrase like "I and my Father are one" literal, even though that same terminology is used figuratively multiple other places in scripture. Rather than starting with scripture, reading it for what it says and working their way out from there; trinitarians start with their doctrine, and try to interpret the scriptures in a way that makes sense under that lens.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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Correction: "improper perspective"

The problem with trinitarians is whether intentional or subconsciously, they prioritize that church doctrine over the scriptures. Rather than test the doctrine against the most simple understanding of the writings, they create more complicated interpretations of scriptures (which the believers of that doctrine don't agree on) in order to try to make the doctrine work. Their priorities are simply in the wrong place.

More often than not, the simplest reading will be the correct one. So when studying scripture it makes the most sense to start with the the literal meaning of the text. You only begin to divert from the literal meaning when you have context that suggests it should not be taken literal (a vision, dream, parable, etc), or you have other examples where the same terminology is shown to be used figuratively.

Trinitarians do not follow these rules of textual criticism. "For the Father is Greater than I".... On it's own, the most simple and literal interpretation is clear. You then see the Messiah constantly giving The Father credit for what the Son does. The Messiah also says that only The Father is all-knowing (knows the hour). The Messiah prays to The Father and tells us to do the same. The Father refers to Himself as "The Most High".... hence "higher" than everything and everyone. The Father says He is "above all Gods".

None of that evidence is taken literal and in it's most simple interpretation by trinitarians. However, they can take a phrase like "I and my Father are one" literal, even though that same terminology is used figuratively multiple other places in scripture. Rather than starting with scripture, reading it for what it says and working their way out from there; trinitarians start with their doctrine, and try to interpret the scriptures in a way that makes sense under that lens.

The one true God
has revealed Himself as the eternally self-existent “I AM,” the Creator of heaven and earth and the Redeemer of mankind. He has further revealed Himself as embodying the principles of relationship and association as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Deuteronomy 6:4
Isaiah 43:10,11
Matthew 28:19
Luke 3:22

The Adorable Godhead
Terms Defined


The terms “Trinity” and “persons” as related to the Godhead, while not found in the Scriptures, are words in harmony with Scripture, whereby we may convey to others our immediate understanding of the doctrine of Christ respecting the Being of God, as distinguished from “gods many and lords many.”

We therefore may speak with propriety of the Lord our God who is One Lord, as a trinity or as one Being of three persons, and still be absolutely scriptural.

Matthew 28:19
2 Corinthians 13:14
John 14:16-17

Distinction and Relationship in the Godhead

Christ taught a distinction of Persons in the Godhead which He expressed in specific terms of relationship, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but that this distinction and relationship, as to its mode is inscrutable and incomprehensible, because unexplained.

Luke 1:35
1 Corinthians 1:24
Matthew 11:25-27
Matthew 28:19
2 Corinthians 13:14
1 John 1:3-4

Unity of the One Being of Father, Son and Holy Spirit

Accordingly, therefore, there is that in the Father which constitutes him the Father and not the Son; there is that in the Son which constitutes Him the Son and not the Father; and there is that in the Holy Spirit which constitutes Him the Holy Spirit and not either the Father or the Son. Wherefore the Father is the Begetter, the Son is the Begotten, and the Holy Spirit is the one proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore, because these three persons in the Godhead are in a state of unity, there is but one Lord God Almighty and His name one.

John 1:18
John 15:26
John 17:11
John 17:21
Zechariah 14:9

Identity and Cooperation in the Godhead

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are never identical as to Person; nor confused as to relation; nor divided in respect to the Godhead; nor opposed as to cooperation. The Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son as to relationship. The Son is with the Father and the Father is with the Son, as to fellowship. The Father is not from the Son, but the Son is from the Father, as to authority. The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son proceeding, as to nature, relationship, cooperation and authority. Hence, neither Person in the Godhead either exists or works separately or independently of the others.

John 5:17-30
John 5:32
John 5:37
John 8:17,18

The Title, Lord Jesus Christ

The appellation, “Lord Jesus Christ,” is a proper name. It is never applied in the New Testament, either to the Father or to the Holy Spirit. It therefore belongs exclusively to the Son of God.

Romans 1:1-3
2 John 1:3
The Lord Jesus Christ, God with Us
The Lord Jesus Christ, as to His divine and eternal nature, is the proper and only Begotten of the Father, but as to His human nature, He is the proper Son of Man. He is therefore, acknowledged to be both God and man; who because He is God and man is “Immanuel,” God with us.
Matthew 1:23
1 John 4:2
1 John 4:10
1 John 4:14
Revelation 1:13
Revelation 1:17

The Title, Son of God

Since the name “Immanuel” embraces both God and man in the one Person, our Lord Jesus Christ, it follows that the title, Son of God, describes His proper deity, and the title, Son of Man, His proper humanity. Therefore, the title Son of God, belongs to the order of eternity, and the title, Son of Man, to the order of time.

Matthew 1:21-23
2 John 1:3
1 John 3:8
Hebrews 7:3
Hebrews 1:1-13

Transgression of the Doctrine of Christ

Wherefore, it is a transgression of the Doctrine of Christ to say that Jesus Christ derived the title, Son of God, solely from the fact of the incarnation, or because of His relation to the economy of redemption. Therefore, to deny that the Father is a real and eternal Father, and that the Son is a real and eternal Son, is a denial of the distinction and relationship in the Being of God; a denial of the Father, and the Son; and a displacement of the truth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

2 John 1:9
John 1:1
John 1:2
John 1:14
John 1:18
John 1:29
John 1:49
1 John 2:22,23
1 John 4:1-5
Hebrews 12:2

Exaltation of Jesus Christ as Lord

The Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, having by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; angels and principalities and powers having been made subject unto Him. And having been made both Lord and Christ, He sent the Holy Spirit that we, in the name of Jesus, might bow our knees and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father until the end, when the Son shall become subject to the Father that God may be all in all.
Hebrews 1:3
1 Peter 3:22
Acts 2:32-36
Romans 14:11
1 Corinthians 15:24-28

Equal Honor to the Father and to the Son
Wherefore, since the Father has delivered all judgment unto the Son, it is not only the express duty of all in heaven and on earth to bow the knee, but it is an unspeakable joy in the Holy Spirit to ascribe unto the Son all the attributes of Deity, and to give Him all honor and the glory contained in all the names and titles of the Godhead except those which express relationship (see Distinction and Relationship in the Godhead, Unity of the One Being of Father, Son and Holy Spirit , and Identity and Cooperation in the Godhead) and thus honor the Son even as we honor the Father.
 
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The one true God
has revealed Himself as the eternally self-existent “I AM,” the Creator of heaven and earth and the Redeemer of mankind. He has further revealed Himself as embodying the principles of relationship and association as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Even if there wasn't translation issues in the bible version you use with the phrase "I AM" in Exodus, using the same phrase as The Most High does not denote that you are the same entity or carry the same level of power/authority. That requires pure speculation.


The terms “Trinity” and “persons” as related to the Godhead, while not found in the Scriptures, are words in harmony with Scripture, whereby we may convey to others our immediate understanding of the doctrine of Christ respecting the Being of God, as distinguished from “gods many and lords many.”

We therefore may speak with propriety of the Lord our God who is One Lord, as a trinity or as one Being of three persons, and still be absolutely scriptural.
None of the verses posted say The Father's Holy spirit is a person, nor do they say Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all equal and make up The Most High God. Those beliefs require you to read the trinity doctrine into the text.


Distinction and Relationship in the Godhead

Christ taught a distinction of Persons in the Godhead which He expressed in specific terms of relationship, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but that this distinction and relationship, as to its mode is inscrutable and incomprehensible, because unexplained.

Luke 1:35 says what the Holy spirit does... but you miss it because or the trinitarian blinders. The Holy spirit carries the power of The Most High. It is our access to Him. He can not be seen or heard directly by man, so everything is done through HIS spirit.

None of those verses suggest that the Godhead is how the trinity doctrine describes it to be.


Unity of the One Being of Father, Son and Holy Spirit

Accordingly, therefore, there is that in the Father which constitutes him the Father and not the Son; there is that in the Son which constitutes Him the Son and not the Father; and there is that in the Holy Spirit which constitutes Him the Holy Spirit and not either the Father or the Son. Wherefore the Father is the Begetter, the Son is the Begotten, and the Holy Spirit is the one proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore, because these three persons in the Godhead are in a state of unity, there is but one Lord God Almighty and His name one.

This is a pattern... you post a bunch of beliefs you have regarding the trinity, then you follow up with some verses that don't say those things. John 17:11 and 17:20-21 are contradictory to what trinitarians often (including on this forum) use as evidence for their doctrine. They use the verses that state The Father and Son are "one" as evidence that they together make up The Most High God. Nowhere does it say this in scripture, and those verses in John 17 say we all can be "one" with God like the Father and Son are "one". So with the faulty trinitarian logic, we would all be able to make up what The Most High God is.... but of course that's not the case.


Identity and Cooperation in the Godhead

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are never identical as to Person; nor confused as to relation; nor divided in respect to the Godhead; nor opposed as to cooperation. The Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son as to relationship. The Son is with the Father and the Father is with the Son, as to fellowship. The Father is not from the Son, but the Son is from the Father, as to authority. The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son proceeding, as to nature, relationship, cooperation and authority. Hence, neither Person in the Godhead either exists or works separately or independently of the others.
Same pattern... More trinitarian doctrine, followed by verses that do not say that doctrine. Still no verses have been posted that indicate the Godhead is a trinity, that The Father, Son and Holy spirit make up The Most High God, or that The Holy spirit is a separate person rather than The Most High being the person behind His spirit.


The Title, Lord Jesus Christ

The appellation, “Lord Jesus Christ,” is a proper name. It is never applied in the New Testament, either to the Father or to the Holy Spirit. It therefore belongs exclusively to the Son of God.

The Lord Jesus Christ, God with Us
The Lord Jesus Christ, as to His divine and eternal nature, is the proper and only Begotten of the Father, but as to His human nature, He is the proper Son of Man. He is therefore, acknowledged to be both God and man; who because He is God and man is “Immanuel,” God with us.

I have never denied Jesus being "God"... However, I have proven many times on this forum that the word "God" is not exclusive for the Messiah or His Father. God, Lord, Son of God, Son of man, Only begotten son..... None of these terms are exclusive to The Messiah. That is really irrelevant anyway because The Most High still has titles exclusive to Him that The Messiah is never referred to. Sure Jesus is God as well... but he is still outranked by His Father The Most High God.


The Title, Son of God

Since the name “Immanuel” embraces both God and man in the one Person, our Lord Jesus Christ, it follows that the title, Son of God, describes His proper deity, and the title, Son of Man, His proper humanity. Therefore, the title Son of God, belongs to the order of eternity, and the title, Son of Man, to the order of time.

Again, Son of God and Son of man are not exclusive to the Messiah. Regardless, they do not prove the trinity doctrine either way.


Transgression of the Doctrine of Christ

Wherefore, it is a transgression of the Doctrine of Christ to say that Jesus Christ derived the title, Son of God, solely from the fact of the incarnation, or because of His relation to the economy of redemption. Therefore, to deny that the Father is a real and eternal Father, and that the Son is a real and eternal Son, is a denial of the distinction and relationship in the Being of God; a denial of the Father, and the Son; and a displacement of the truth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

The Son of God is a title used for those that that are walking in a way that represents The Father. Son of God represents the spiritual, Son of man represents the physical. Again, not exclusive titles for the Messiah and do not define the trinity doctrine.



Exaltation of Jesus Christ as Lord

The Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, having by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; angels and principalities and powers having been made subject unto Him. And having been made both Lord and Christ, He sent the Holy Spirit that we, in the name of Jesus, might bow our knees and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father until the end, when the Son shall become subject to the Father that God may be all in all.

Everything was good until that last line... Why is he not always subject to The Father? All the Messiah's power and authority was given to him by his Father. The Father simply delegated this rulership to His son.


Equal Honor to the Father and to the Son
Wherefore, since the Father has delivered all judgment unto the Son, it is not only the express duty of all in heaven and on earth to bow the knee, but it is an unspeakable joy in the Holy Spirit to ascribe unto the Son all the attributes of Deity, and to give Him all honor and the glory contained in all the names and titles of the Godhead except those which express relationship (see Distinction and Relationship in the Godhead, Unity of the One Being of Father, Son and Holy Spirit , and Identity and Cooperation in the Godhead) and thus honor the Son even as we honor the Father.

...and here you are completely off. There is absolutely nothing you have posted from scripture that indicates what the Godhead is, let alone it being a trinity (three persons). There is absolutely nothing that you posted from scripture that indicates that just because The Father gave the Messiah reign over the angels in heaven and man on earth, that he also receives all of the titles and same authority as his Father. Everything you posted goes right in line with post #478. The trinity doctrine is your foundation and the scriptures are therefore interpreted with a lens that fits that doctrine... rather than simply starting with the simple and literal interpretations of scripture and working your way out from there.


The word "Godhead" is only in scripture three times that I'm aware of. To assume that this word means Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is speculation at best. For those that are not KJV-onlyists, many bible versions (and Strong's dictionary) translate this word as "divinity". Thayer's Lexicon has this word as "diety"... meaning the state of being God (as opposed to man). No definition of this word suggests that it is multiple entities.