Verse for "once saved always saved"?

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LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
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LOL! The one that stops believing is also one that "believeth not"! "Believeth not" is the larger group that includes those who have never believed.
Who says that?
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
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So, if Jesus' words are meant for discipleship and not salvation . . .

Then in John 3 when Jesus talks to Nicodemus about being born again, he is talking about discipleship and not salvation.

And John 3:16 is about discipleship and not salvation? And so what then - Do you believe Jesus was promoting some type of a works religion?
That's confusing... again, how long must a person stop believing?
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
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You effectively "made no sense" just now.
Very true. Also it says "because hath not believed on the name of the begotten son". And when he hasn't, he hasn't just failed to endure to end, but he never believed.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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You effectively "made no sense" just now.
Of course I was not making sense - that is just the point! :p

I was answering a post that stated that Jesus' words "were not meant for salvation, but for discipleship".

(The backdrop of that was that LW97 is arguing that because Jesus' words in the gospels were before Jesus' death, then the New Covenant was not yet in effect when Jesus was speaking in the Gospels. The point he has been hinting at is that Paul's teachings in the Gospel are where the true real teaching about salvation is. Genesis to Acts are a "works" religion. But I Corinthians through Philemon are a grace, faith gospel.)

My post in 1179 was showing the absurdity of such a philosophy.

(Go back and trace the argument! LOL!)
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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That's confusing... again, how long must a person stop believing?
Now you are being confusing?? I have not been asking anyone to stop believing! Why would I be saying that someone must stop believing?
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Very true. Also it says "because hath not believed on the name of the begotten son". And when he hasn't, he hasn't just failed to endure to end, but he never believed.
I assume you are referring to John 3:18:

KJV - "because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"

The "believed" is perfect tense = because he did not believe in past time with ongoing results

Two questions: (1) How does that verse say: "he hasn't just failed to endure to end, but he never believed"?
(2) You said earlier that Jesus' words are about discipleship and not salvation - but now you seem to be arguing salvation issues here?​
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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That's confusing... again, how long must a person stop believing?
5 minutes, 5 days or 5 years. What difference does it make. If you die as a unbeliever does how long matter?
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
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Now you are being confusing?? I have not been asking anyone to stop believing! Why would I be saying that someone must stop believing?
Must stop believing to lose salvation
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
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5 minutes, 5 days or 5 years. What difference does it make. If you die as a unbeliever does how long matter?
Can a believer become an unbeliever in your opinion?
 
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LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
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I assume you are referring to John 3:18:

KJV - "because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"

The "believed" is perfect tense = because he did not believe in past time with ongoing results

Two questions: (1) How does that verse say: "he hasn't just failed to endure to end, but he never believed"?
(2) You said earlier that Jesus' words are about discipleship and not salvation - but now you seem to be arguing salvation issues here?​
(1) You interpreted "because he hath not believed" to "he didn't endure to the end", because you say it's possible he once believed, but stopped. But the Greek says "because not he has believed". Therefore it's clear the Greek says he NEVER believed.

pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

(2)I am talking about the Sermon of the Mount, not the Book of John or the Book of Acts

 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
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4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
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what is "not" in the Greek here?

mé: not, that...not, lest (used for qualified negation)
Original Word: μή
Part of Speech: Particle, Negative
Transliteration:
Phonetic Spelling: (may)
Short Definition: not, lest
Definition: not, lest.

3361 mḗ (a particle which functions as an adverb) – no, not. 3361 (mḗ) negates "subjectively," ruling out any implications ("suggestions") that could be involved with what should (could, would) apply.
3361 /mḗ ("not") negates the underlying idea (concept) of a statement, ruling out its possibilities, i.e. all that it suggests on a conceptual or hypothetical plane.
[3361 /mḗ ("not, no") then negates the implications (suggestions) that naturally spring from the negated statement.]





Therefore, it's a clear sign that he never believed.

 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
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2 Timothy 2:13 says "if we believeth not, yet he abideth faithful".

"believeth not" in the Greek?

apisteó: to disbelieve, be faithless
Original Word: ἀπιστέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apisteó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-is-teh'-o)
Short Definition: I am unfaithful, I disbelieve
Definition: I am unfaithful, disbelieve, refuse belief, prove false.

Cognate: 569 apistéō (from 571 /ápistos, "unfaithful," without faith, i.e. negating 4103 /pistós, "faithful") – properly, refusing to be persuaded by God ("betray His trust," J. Thayer).
569 /apistéō ("not willing to be persuaded") means more than "disbelieve" ("not believing") because it indicates "refusing to be faithful" (honor a trust or revelation from the Lord). See 571 (apistos).
569/apisteō ("refuse to be persuaded") is sin committed by believers (Mk 16:11; Lk 24:11,41) and unbelievers (Ac 28:24; Ro 3:3; 1 Pet 2:7). 569 (apistéō) reveals a person is unconvinced when they should be persuaded by what the Lord has done (offered).

 
Dec 28, 2016
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Really? I think "that I can come into and out of belief on my own"? That's interesting! LOL! :eek: :confused:
Of course. It's through the free will doctrine you teach. But the thing is bro, you attempt to go Solus Christus with it all by making it that Christ brought you to some point of decision, and that your decision (free will faith decision) clinched the salvation. YOu cannot have it both ways, either salvation is all of God or it is not.

I suppose as is often the case on CC it depends how you interpret an other's words.
Correct to a point, but I am not misinterpreting your words or beliefs here if I recall correctly.

I actually believe that we come to believe through the working of God's grace in our hearts which allows us to respond in faith to Him.
Yes, but you believe it is free will choosing.

You realize faith is a gift, right, or no, to you it was innate?

That faith is not yours, it is not innate, not inherent. It is supernatural. Very supernatural. :)
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Of course. It's through the free will doctrine you teach. But the thing is bro, you attempt to go Solus Christus with it all by making it that Christ brought you to some point of decision, and that your decision (free will faith decision) clinched the salvation. YOu cannot have it both ways, either salvation is all of God or it is not.



Correct to a point, but I am not misinterpreting your words or beliefs here if I recall correctly.



Yes, but you believe it is free will choosing.

You realize faith is a gift, right, or no, to you it was innate?

That faith is not yours, it is not innate, not inherent. It is supernatural. Very supernatural. :)
Interesting, interesting! I never said the faith was mine. Of course the faith is very, very, very supernatural. I do not believe my decision clinches the salvation. Of course salvation is all of God, but that does not mean I am not involved. Of course, faith is a gift - Eph. 2:8 says so. You said I attempt "to go 'Solus Christus'" . . .? No, that is not what I am attempting to do - my starting point is Scripture, not the five points of Reformed theology.

Simply put - I believe I am saved by God's grace through my response in faith, and this is not anything of my own doing, but the whole thing together is the gift of God: it is not in any means by works that I am saved, and thus there is zero grounds for boasting on my part! But now I am the workmanship of God created unto good works which was God's plan from the beginning.