Vote on Obsession with confession(1st John 1:9,sin confession)
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L
I began to hear about grace (the kind you are always talking about
) "Acceptance Grace".,going on maybe 2 years ago but it feels like longer. My brain/mind has changed drastically about God and about Jesus.At the time I was open to this grace only because I was ill for a while and my pride was gone. Not able to do much of anything to be proud of, not even work or help anyone even my family. When I began to get better it was because of the love of Christ. His love came into my mind and heart as I trusted Him to take care of me without me doing a thing. Not because I didn't want to but because I had nothing to offer.
As you posted here Grace777 religion and religious people have it all wrong, "if you don't sin you will not be condemned". That kind of believing allows nothing to transform in a persons mind that is of a supernatural nature, but only allows for changing outwardly because of fear of rejection or punishment. A total "self protection" kind of life that never changes because it is based on self and not Jesus.
He sees us with such different eyes. And His love has nothing to do with what we offer Him. We humans look at each other and just can't help judging motives and looks or speech or anything we perceive with our 5 senses. We just can't help it. We need a change of mind. It is the love of Christ that constrains and transforms us. The grace that is there that wants nothing in return but our belief that He is giving it just as we are in our shame of having nothing to offer but brokenness.
I notice that what kept me from moving forward in life was the inability to see the way God sees. How can we love others if we don't know we are loved by God? We are trapped in our own thinking until we allow the Holy Spirit to give us a revelation of the love/grace of God in Christ.
What you said about knowing we are not condemned in Christ 'releases' the life of the empowering grace to transform us.... this is true. It is all about Christ and how He will transform us to bring out the fruit of His righteousness in our lives. Only then will the thoughts we have and the works we do be on the foundation of Christ and be made of gold and precious stones and NOT wood hay and stubble when the foundation is our own mind un transformed.
And it is true., when I was going about my life with self reliance and reliance on others, it was not a reliance on Christ at all. I was still like my family just doing religion. We got saved and we went to church but we had no power in our lives to do good works that counted. I had a form of godliness but denied the real resurrection power of Christ and the grace that I believed when I first got saved. Religion when it is work based is a killer. Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts., how to live soberly and righteously and godly in THIS PRESENT WORLD. Grace is for today and the promises are there for us to believe and walk in. Thank you for posting consistently about Grace. Blessings!!
You still haven't managed to prove that Jesus is still shedding His blood for sins from the Bible.
Why? Because you can't prove it from the Bible. It emanates from your imagination.
The reason you can't accept the fact that Jesus paid for all of our sins, once, to never be repeated, is because grace offends your pride. You want to work for your salvation. You want to be a "partner" with Jesus. You want to feel the pride that comes with "earning" and "doing."
Guess what? Jesus isn't going to share the credit for what He accomplished with you, or anyone.
It's not about "we" it's about a "He".
A fairly large percentage believe they must confess their sins continuously for their right standing with God. So I ask, what did Jesus accomplish at the cross? Is it or is it not called the plan of reconciliation? How is it that your sin alienates God from you, who have been washed in the blood of Jesus Christ, making your sins of scarlet as white as snow? If sin confession was necessary did the apostle Paul do us a huge disservice to not mention it once if it were so essential?
All these questions arise because the very idea of sin confession is at odds with the entire Gospel. In context sin confession just simply means to acknowledge one's sinfulness and need for the savior. You know, exactly what you did in order to place your faith in Jesus Christ. This other concept of keeping short accounts with God of your sin, while not damnable, it also doesn't save you. This idea is at odds with God's grace and the finished work of Jesus Christ at the cross that took away all sin. It truly puts an emphasis on ourselves and what we do rather than on Jesus and His finished work.
The issue really isn't sin confession singularly, but sin confession for forgiveness (the intent). I am forgiven in Christ, period and my forgiveness is not dependent upon my sin confession but my true confession that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, that He died on the cross for my sins and resurrected on the third day. I am not saved because I continue to confess my sins dutifully but because of Jesus Christ and Him alone. My salvation isn't maintained by me, but is secure in Him.
All these questions arise because the very idea of sin confession is at odds with the entire Gospel. In context sin confession just simply means to acknowledge one's sinfulness and need for the savior. You know, exactly what you did in order to place your faith in Jesus Christ. This other concept of keeping short accounts with God of your sin, while not damnable, it also doesn't save you. This idea is at odds with God's grace and the finished work of Jesus Christ at the cross that took away all sin. It truly puts an emphasis on ourselves and what we do rather than on Jesus and His finished work.
The issue really isn't sin confession singularly, but sin confession for forgiveness (the intent). I am forgiven in Christ, period and my forgiveness is not dependent upon my sin confession but my true confession that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, that He died on the cross for my sins and resurrected on the third day. I am not saved because I continue to confess my sins dutifully but because of Jesus Christ and Him alone. My salvation isn't maintained by me, but is secure in Him.
The blood was shed once, yet it exists forever. Do you think it no longer exists?
It existed after the resurrection
Then he said to Thomas, “Place your finger here and see my hands, and place your hand and put [it] into my side. And do not be unbelieving, but believing!” John 20:27
It exists in heaven
And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing as though slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent into all the earth. Revelation 5:6
And it forgives forever because the one whose blood it is lives forever in the holy place
It existed after the resurrection
Then he said to Thomas, “Place your finger here and see my hands, and place your hand and put [it] into my side. And do not be unbelieving, but believing!” John 20:27
It exists in heaven
And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing as though slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent into all the earth. Revelation 5:6
And it forgives forever because the one whose blood it is lives forever in the holy place
Therefore also he is able to save completely those who draw near to God through him, [because he] always lives in order to intercede on their behalf. Hebrews 7:25
But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7
How is it that your sin alienates you from God? The same way it alienated Israelites from GOD.
But perhaps you (unconscioiusly) think the new covenant gives you the right to trample underfoot the blood of Christ?
Paul didn't mention that seeking forgiveness was necessary, but Jesus sure did.
Has the hand of the Lord no power to save? or has he made his ear heavy, so that he should not hear? Nay, your iniquities separate between you and God, and because of your sins has he turned away [his] face from you, so as not to have mercy [upon you]. Isaiah 59:1-2
But perhaps you (unconscioiusly) think the new covenant gives you the right to trample underfoot the blood of Christ?
Anyone who rejected the law of Moses dies without mercy on [the testimony of] two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think the person will be considered worthy of who treats with disdain the Son of God and who considers ordinary the blood of the covenant by which he was made holy and who insults the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29
Paul didn't mention that seeking forgiveness was necessary, but Jesus sure did.
And forgive us our sins, for we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And do not lead us into temptation.” Luke 11:4
For if you forgive people their sins, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive people, neither will your Father forgive your sins. Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive people their sins, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive people, neither will your Father forgive your sins. Matthew 6:14-15
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary. G1651
English Words used in KJV:
reprove 6
rebuke 5
convince 4
tell (one's) fault 1
convict 1
All the words above here can be used in any scriptures that has the same greek word in it..
There are many meanings to the greek word ἐλέγχω elegcho
It does not always refer to sin...We must read the context to get the meaning of the word..greek is a very descriptive language...but it's general usage is to reprove and convince..King Jimmie uses convict only one time
to find fault with, correct; a. by word; to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove, to convict, refute, confute,, contextually, to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation,by deed; to chasten, punish
Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.
English Words used in KJV:
reprove 6
rebuke 5
convince 4
tell (one's) fault 1
convict 1
[Total Count: 17]
of uncertain affinity; to confute, admonish :- convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
Here are some other places where the exact same word was used.
Ephesians 5:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;
2 Timothy 4:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
1 Corinthians 14:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
Titus 1:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
James 2:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Ephesians 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.
English Words used in KJV:
reprove 6
rebuke 5
convince 4
tell (one's) fault 1
convict 1
All the words above here can be used in any scriptures that has the same greek word in it..
There are many meanings to the greek word ἐλέγχω elegcho
It does not always refer to sin...We must read the context to get the meaning of the word..greek is a very descriptive language...but it's general usage is to reprove and convince..King Jimmie uses convict only one time
to find fault with, correct; a. by word; to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove, to convict, refute, confute,, contextually, to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation,by deed; to chasten, punish
Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.
English Words used in KJV:
reprove 6
rebuke 5
convince 4
tell (one's) fault 1
convict 1
[Total Count: 17]
of uncertain affinity; to confute, admonish :- convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
Here are some other places where the exact same word was used.
Ephesians 5:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;
2 Timothy 4:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
1 Corinthians 14:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
Titus 1:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
James 2:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Ephesians 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.
If we are to reprehend a brother when he sins against us, wouldn't Christ, our brother, do the same?
Now if your brother sins against you, go correct him between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. Matthew 18:15
Correct is the same word as convict in John 16:8
And [when he] comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: John 16:8
Convict
Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament
ἐλέγχω; fut. ἐλέγξω; 1 aor. inf. ἐλέγξαι, impv. ἔλεγξον; [Pass., pres. ἐλέγχομαι; 1 aor. ἐλέγχθην]; Sept. for הוֹכִיחֵ;
1. to convict, refute, confute, generally with a suggestion of the shame of the person convicted, [“ἐλέγχειν hat eigentlieh nicht die Bedeutung ‘tadeln, schmähen, zureeht-weisen,’ wclche ihm die Lexika zusehreiben, sondern bedeutet nichts als überführen” (Schmidt Ch. iv. § 12)]: τινά, of crime, fault, or error; of sin, 1 Co. 14:24; (ἐλεγχόμενοι ὑπὸ τοῦ νόμου ὡς παραβάται, Jas. 2:9; ὑπὰ τῆς συνειδήσεως, Jn. 8:9 R G (Philo, opp. ii. p. 649 [ed. Mang., vi. 203 ed. Richter, frag, περὶ ἀναστάσεως καὶ p 203 κρίσεως] τὸ συνειδὸς ἔλεγχος ἀδέκαστος καὶ πάντων ἀψευδέστατος); foll. by περί with gen. of thing, Jn. 8:46; 16:8, and L T Tr WH in Jude 15, (Arstph. Plut. 574); contextually, by conviction to bring to light, to expose: τί, Jn. 3:20, cf. 21; Eph. 5:11, 13, (Arstph. eccl. 485; τὰ κρυπτά, Artem. oneir. 1, 68; ἐπιστάμενος, ὡς εἰ καὶ λάθοι ἡ ἐπιβουλὴ κ. μὴ ἐλεγχθείη, Hdian. 3, 12, 11 [4 ed. Bekk.]; al.); used of the exposure and confutation of false teachers of Christianity, Tit. 1:9, 13; ταῦτα ἔλεγχε, utter these things by way of refutation, Tit. 2:15.
2. to find fault with, correct;
a. by word; to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove: Jude 22 L T Tr txt.; 1 Tim. 5:20; 2 Tim. 4:2; τινὰ περί τινος, Lk. 3:19; contextually, to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation: τινά, from some one, Mt. 18:15.
b. by deed; to chasten, punish, (acc. to the trans. of the Hebr. הוֹכִיחַ, Ps. 37 (38):2, etc.; Sap. 12:2): Heb. 12:5 (fr. Prov. 3:11); Rev. 3:19. [On this word cf. J. C. Hare, The Mission of the Comforter, note L; Trench § iv. COMP.: ἐξ-, δια-κατ-(-μαι).]*
Now if your brother sins against you, go correct him between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. Matthew 18:15
Correct is the same word as convict in John 16:8
And [when he] comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: John 16:8
Convict
Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament
ἐλέγχω; fut. ἐλέγξω; 1 aor. inf. ἐλέγξαι, impv. ἔλεγξον; [Pass., pres. ἐλέγχομαι; 1 aor. ἐλέγχθην]; Sept. for הוֹכִיחֵ;
1. to convict, refute, confute, generally with a suggestion of the shame of the person convicted, [“ἐλέγχειν hat eigentlieh nicht die Bedeutung ‘tadeln, schmähen, zureeht-weisen,’ wclche ihm die Lexika zusehreiben, sondern bedeutet nichts als überführen” (Schmidt Ch. iv. § 12)]: τινά, of crime, fault, or error; of sin, 1 Co. 14:24; (ἐλεγχόμενοι ὑπὸ τοῦ νόμου ὡς παραβάται, Jas. 2:9; ὑπὰ τῆς συνειδήσεως, Jn. 8:9 R G (Philo, opp. ii. p. 649 [ed. Mang., vi. 203 ed. Richter, frag, περὶ ἀναστάσεως καὶ p 203 κρίσεως] τὸ συνειδὸς ἔλεγχος ἀδέκαστος καὶ πάντων ἀψευδέστατος); foll. by περί with gen. of thing, Jn. 8:46; 16:8, and L T Tr WH in Jude 15, (Arstph. Plut. 574); contextually, by conviction to bring to light, to expose: τί, Jn. 3:20, cf. 21; Eph. 5:11, 13, (Arstph. eccl. 485; τὰ κρυπτά, Artem. oneir. 1, 68; ἐπιστάμενος, ὡς εἰ καὶ λάθοι ἡ ἐπιβουλὴ κ. μὴ ἐλεγχθείη, Hdian. 3, 12, 11 [4 ed. Bekk.]; al.); used of the exposure and confutation of false teachers of Christianity, Tit. 1:9, 13; ταῦτα ἔλεγχε, utter these things by way of refutation, Tit. 2:15.
2. to find fault with, correct;
a. by word; to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove: Jude 22 L T Tr txt.; 1 Tim. 5:20; 2 Tim. 4:2; τινὰ περί τινος, Lk. 3:19; contextually, to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation: τινά, from some one, Mt. 18:15.
b. by deed; to chasten, punish, (acc. to the trans. of the Hebr. הוֹכִיחַ, Ps. 37 (38):2, etc.; Sap. 12:2): Heb. 12:5 (fr. Prov. 3:11); Rev. 3:19. [On this word cf. J. C. Hare, The Mission of the Comforter, note L; Trench § iv. COMP.: ἐξ-, δια-κατ-(-μαι).]*
The carnal mind doesn't like for its deeds to be exposed by the holy spirit.
For everyone who practices evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds be exposed. John 3:20
Exposed is the same word as convict in John 16:8
And [when he] comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: John 16:8
Convict
Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament
ἐλέγχω; fut. ἐλέγξω; 1 aor. inf. ἐλέγξαι, impv. ἔλεγξον; [Pass., pres. ἐλέγχομαι; 1 aor. ἐλέγχθην]; Sept. for הוֹכִיחֵ;
1. to convict, refute, confute, generally with a suggestion of the shame of the person convicted, [“ἐλέγχειν hat eigentlieh nicht die Bedeutung ‘tadeln, schmähen, zureeht-weisen,’ wclche ihm die Lexika zusehreiben, sondern bedeutet nichts als überführen” (Schmidt Ch. iv. § 12)]: τινά, of crime, fault, or error; of sin, 1 Co. 14:24; (ἐλεγχόμενοι ὑπὸ τοῦ νόμου ὡς παραβάται, Jas. 2:9; ὑπὰ τῆς συνειδήσεως, Jn. 8:9 R G (Philo, opp. ii. p. 649 [ed. Mang., vi. 203 ed. Richter, frag, περὶ ἀναστάσεως καὶ p 203 κρίσεως] τὸ συνειδὸς ἔλεγχος ἀδέκαστος καὶ πάντων ἀψευδέστατος); foll. by περί with gen. of thing, Jn. 8:46; 16:8, and L T Tr WH in Jude 15, (Arstph. Plut. 574); contextually, by conviction to bring to light, to expose: τί, Jn. 3:20, cf. 21; Eph. 5:11, 13, (Arstph. eccl. 485; τὰ κρυπτά, Artem. oneir. 1, 68; ἐπιστάμενος, ὡς εἰ καὶ λάθοι ἡ ἐπιβουλὴ κ. μὴ ἐλεγχθείη, Hdian. 3, 12, 11 [4 ed. Bekk.]; al.); used of the exposure and confutation of false teachers of Christianity, Tit. 1:9, 13; ταῦτα ἔλεγχε, utter these things by way of refutation, Tit. 2:15.
2. to find fault with, correct;
a. by word; to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove: Jude 22 L T Tr txt.; 1 Tim. 5:20; 2 Tim. 4:2; τινὰ περί τινος, Lk. 3:19; contextually, to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation: τινά, from some one, Mt. 18:15.
b. by deed; to chasten, punish, (acc. to the trans. of the Hebr. הוֹכִיחַ, Ps. 37 (38):2, etc.; Sap. 12:2): Heb. 12:5 (fr. Prov. 3:11); Rev. 3:19. [On this word cf. J. C. Hare, The Mission of the Comforter, note L; Trench § iv. COMP.: ἐξ-, δια-κατ-(-μαι).]*
For everyone who practices evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds be exposed. John 3:20
Exposed is the same word as convict in John 16:8
And [when he] comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: John 16:8
Convict
Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament
ἐλέγχω; fut. ἐλέγξω; 1 aor. inf. ἐλέγξαι, impv. ἔλεγξον; [Pass., pres. ἐλέγχομαι; 1 aor. ἐλέγχθην]; Sept. for הוֹכִיחֵ;
1. to convict, refute, confute, generally with a suggestion of the shame of the person convicted, [“ἐλέγχειν hat eigentlieh nicht die Bedeutung ‘tadeln, schmähen, zureeht-weisen,’ wclche ihm die Lexika zusehreiben, sondern bedeutet nichts als überführen” (Schmidt Ch. iv. § 12)]: τινά, of crime, fault, or error; of sin, 1 Co. 14:24; (ἐλεγχόμενοι ὑπὸ τοῦ νόμου ὡς παραβάται, Jas. 2:9; ὑπὰ τῆς συνειδήσεως, Jn. 8:9 R G (Philo, opp. ii. p. 649 [ed. Mang., vi. 203 ed. Richter, frag, περὶ ἀναστάσεως καὶ p 203 κρίσεως] τὸ συνειδὸς ἔλεγχος ἀδέκαστος καὶ πάντων ἀψευδέστατος); foll. by περί with gen. of thing, Jn. 8:46; 16:8, and L T Tr WH in Jude 15, (Arstph. Plut. 574); contextually, by conviction to bring to light, to expose: τί, Jn. 3:20, cf. 21; Eph. 5:11, 13, (Arstph. eccl. 485; τὰ κρυπτά, Artem. oneir. 1, 68; ἐπιστάμενος, ὡς εἰ καὶ λάθοι ἡ ἐπιβουλὴ κ. μὴ ἐλεγχθείη, Hdian. 3, 12, 11 [4 ed. Bekk.]; al.); used of the exposure and confutation of false teachers of Christianity, Tit. 1:9, 13; ταῦτα ἔλεγχε, utter these things by way of refutation, Tit. 2:15.
2. to find fault with, correct;
a. by word; to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove: Jude 22 L T Tr txt.; 1 Tim. 5:20; 2 Tim. 4:2; τινὰ περί τινος, Lk. 3:19; contextually, to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation: τινά, from some one, Mt. 18:15.
b. by deed; to chasten, punish, (acc. to the trans. of the Hebr. הוֹכִיחַ, Ps. 37 (38):2, etc.; Sap. 12:2): Heb. 12:5 (fr. Prov. 3:11); Rev. 3:19. [On this word cf. J. C. Hare, The Mission of the Comforter, note L; Trench § iv. COMP.: ἐξ-, δια-κατ-(-μαι).]*
The Lord through the Holy Spirit will definitely correct. reprove, convince us but He does it concerning "convicting/convincing " us of righteousness because Jesus is our Advocate...the Righteous One.
The unbeliever He convicts/convinces them that they are guilty of the sin of not believing in Jesus.
It's knowing that we are the righteousness of God in Christ where we stop sinning in what ever form it takes. We start being who we already are in Christ.
Jesus is speaking about the Holy Spirit and He says that He will convict/convince "the world " ( you do know that believers are not OF the world once we come to Christ ) of sin - "because they ( the world ) do not believe in Me." verse 9
Verse 10 Jesus says ..and concerning righteousness because I go to the Father and you ( disciples and now us ) no longer see Me."
Notice the THEY in verse 9 and the YOU in verse 10...and as FreeNChjrist has said....show the New Covenant scriptures about the Holy Spirit convicting believers of sin.
I know this goes against religious upbringing and it has been said so long now that it has become a "sacred cow"...and when we hear something against our "sacred cows"..we want to defend them.....
John 16:8-11 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
The unbeliever He convicts/convinces them that they are guilty of the sin of not believing in Jesus.
It's knowing that we are the righteousness of God in Christ where we stop sinning in what ever form it takes. We start being who we already are in Christ.
Jesus is speaking about the Holy Spirit and He says that He will convict/convince "the world " ( you do know that believers are not OF the world once we come to Christ ) of sin - "because they ( the world ) do not believe in Me." verse 9
Verse 10 Jesus says ..and concerning righteousness because I go to the Father and you ( disciples and now us ) no longer see Me."
Notice the THEY in verse 9 and the YOU in verse 10...and as FreeNChjrist has said....show the New Covenant scriptures about the Holy Spirit convicting believers of sin.
I know this goes against religious upbringing and it has been said so long now that it has become a "sacred cow"...and when we hear something against our "sacred cows"..we want to defend them.....
John 16:8-11 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
The church is commanded to reprove its members who sin. Wouldn't Christ, the head of the church, do the same? Notice the purpose for reproof: fear.
Reprove those who sin in the presence of all, in order that the rest also may experience fear. 1 Timothy 5:20
Reprove is the same word as convict in John 16:8
And [when he] comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: John 16:8
Convict
Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament
ἐλέγχω; fut. ἐλέγξω; 1 aor. inf. ἐλέγξαι, impv. ἔλεγξον; [Pass., pres. ἐλέγχομαι; 1 aor. ἐλέγχθην]; Sept. for הוֹכִיחֵ;
1. to convict, refute, confute, generally with a suggestion of the shame of the person convicted, [“ἐλέγχειν hat eigentlieh nicht die Bedeutung ‘tadeln, schmähen, zureeht-weisen,’ wclche ihm die Lexika zusehreiben, sondern bedeutet nichts als überführen” (Schmidt Ch. iv. § 12)]: τινά, of crime, fault, or error; of sin, 1 Co. 14:24; (ἐλεγχόμενοι ὑπὸ τοῦ νόμου ὡς παραβάται, Jas. 2:9; ὑπὰ τῆς συνειδήσεως, Jn. 8:9 R G (Philo, opp. ii. p. 649 [ed. Mang., vi. 203 ed. Richter, frag, περὶ ἀναστάσεως καὶ p 203 κρίσεως] τὸ συνειδὸς ἔλεγχος ἀδέκαστος καὶ πάντων ἀψευδέστατος); foll. by περί with gen. of thing, Jn. 8:46; 16:8, and L T Tr WH in Jude 15, (Arstph. Plut. 574); contextually, by conviction to bring to light, to expose: τί, Jn. 3:20, cf. 21; Eph. 5:11, 13, (Arstph. eccl. 485; τὰ κρυπτά, Artem. oneir. 1, 68; ἐπιστάμενος, ὡς εἰ καὶ λάθοι ἡ ἐπιβουλὴ κ. μὴ ἐλεγχθείη, Hdian. 3, 12, 11 [4 ed. Bekk.]; al.); used of the exposure and confutation of false teachers of Christianity, Tit. 1:9, 13; ταῦτα ἔλεγχε, utter these things by way of refutation, Tit. 2:15.
2. to find fault with, correct;
a. by word; to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove: Jude 22 L T Tr txt.; 1 Tim. 5:20; 2 Tim. 4:2; τινὰ περί τινος, Lk. 3:19; contextually, to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation: τινά, from some one, Mt. 18:15.
b. by deed; to chasten, punish, (acc. to the trans. of the Hebr. הוֹכִיחַ, Ps. 37 (38):2, etc.; Sap. 12:2): Heb. 12:5 (fr. Prov. 3:11); Rev. 3:19. [On this word cf. J. C. Hare, The Mission of the Comforter, note L; Trench § iv. COMP.: ἐξ-, δια-κατ-(-μαι).]*
Reprove those who sin in the presence of all, in order that the rest also may experience fear. 1 Timothy 5:20
Reprove is the same word as convict in John 16:8
And [when he] comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: John 16:8
Convict
Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament
ἐλέγχω; fut. ἐλέγξω; 1 aor. inf. ἐλέγξαι, impv. ἔλεγξον; [Pass., pres. ἐλέγχομαι; 1 aor. ἐλέγχθην]; Sept. for הוֹכִיחֵ;
1. to convict, refute, confute, generally with a suggestion of the shame of the person convicted, [“ἐλέγχειν hat eigentlieh nicht die Bedeutung ‘tadeln, schmähen, zureeht-weisen,’ wclche ihm die Lexika zusehreiben, sondern bedeutet nichts als überführen” (Schmidt Ch. iv. § 12)]: τινά, of crime, fault, or error; of sin, 1 Co. 14:24; (ἐλεγχόμενοι ὑπὸ τοῦ νόμου ὡς παραβάται, Jas. 2:9; ὑπὰ τῆς συνειδήσεως, Jn. 8:9 R G (Philo, opp. ii. p. 649 [ed. Mang., vi. 203 ed. Richter, frag, περὶ ἀναστάσεως καὶ p 203 κρίσεως] τὸ συνειδὸς ἔλεγχος ἀδέκαστος καὶ πάντων ἀψευδέστατος); foll. by περί with gen. of thing, Jn. 8:46; 16:8, and L T Tr WH in Jude 15, (Arstph. Plut. 574); contextually, by conviction to bring to light, to expose: τί, Jn. 3:20, cf. 21; Eph. 5:11, 13, (Arstph. eccl. 485; τὰ κρυπτά, Artem. oneir. 1, 68; ἐπιστάμενος, ὡς εἰ καὶ λάθοι ἡ ἐπιβουλὴ κ. μὴ ἐλεγχθείη, Hdian. 3, 12, 11 [4 ed. Bekk.]; al.); used of the exposure and confutation of false teachers of Christianity, Tit. 1:9, 13; ταῦτα ἔλεγχε, utter these things by way of refutation, Tit. 2:15.
2. to find fault with, correct;
a. by word; to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove: Jude 22 L T Tr txt.; 1 Tim. 5:20; 2 Tim. 4:2; τινὰ περί τινος, Lk. 3:19; contextually, to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation: τινά, from some one, Mt. 18:15.
b. by deed; to chasten, punish, (acc. to the trans. of the Hebr. הוֹכִיחַ, Ps. 37 (38):2, etc.; Sap. 12:2): Heb. 12:5 (fr. Prov. 3:11); Rev. 3:19. [On this word cf. J. C. Hare, The Mission of the Comforter, note L; Trench § iv. COMP.: ἐξ-, δια-κατ-(-μαι).]*
This is what the Holy Spirit inside of us "convicts/convinces/reproves/exposes " in us now. This is what stops the sinning from continuing for us in the Lord. We know if a behavior is wrong within us and the Holy Spirit does this to us below...This is what He is constantly "speaking" to our hearts.
Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness..when you see who you are in Him in your new man..you become like Him outwardly.
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.
Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.
2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we mightbecome the righteousness of God in Him.
When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells..
Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness..when you see who you are in Him in your new man..you become like Him outwardly.
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.
Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.
2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we mightbecome the righteousness of God in Him.
When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells..
The church is commanded to reprove those who contradict sound doctrine. Wouldn't Christ, the head of the church, do the same to his church?
holding fast to the faithful message according to the teaching, in order that he may be able both to exhort with sound instruction and to reprove those who speak against [it]. Titus 1:9
Reprove is the same word as convict in John 16:8
And [when he] comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: John 16:8
Convict
Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich and Geoffrey William Bromiley, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans, 1985), 221-22.
1. The use outside the NT is complex. In Homer elénchō means “to scorn,” “to bring into contempt.” Later senses are a. “to shame,” b. “to blame,” c. “to expose,” “resist,” d. “to interpret,” “expound,” and e. “to investigate.” LXX meanings are “to rebuke,” “to punish,” “to condemn or convict,” “to examine,” and for the root ykḥ it denotes God’s disciplining by teaching, admonition, testing, and correction.
2. In the NT the use is restricted. With the accusative of person it means “to show people their sins and summon them to repentance,” either privately (Mt. 18:15) or congregationally (1 Tim. 5:20). The Holy Spirit does this (Jn. 16:8), as also Christ does both now (Rev. 3:19) and at the parousia (Jude 15). No one can do it to Jesus himself (Jn. 8:46). Sinners experience this exposure when faced by the prophetic call (Lk. 3:19), divine instruction (Heb. 12:5), or the law (Jms. 2:9). perí is used to denote the fault (Lk. 3:19), with hóti for elaboration (Jn. 16:9ff.). Correction as well as exposure or conviction is implied; the corresponding action is élenxis (2 Pet. 2:16) or elegmós (2 Tim. 3:16).
3. The battle against sin signified by elénchō is based on the OT and Judaism. Lev. 19:17 demands correction. Rebuke is an integral part of love for the rabbis. Prov. 3:12; Job 5:17, etc. depict God as One who educates by correction (cf. Heb. 12:5). The Jewish view of the last judgment includes the exposure of wickedness, as in Jude 15. The group plays an important role in Greek philosophy. In Plato and Aristotle the reference is to the controverting of propositions or to negative conclusions, but Epictetus is closer to the NT with his ethical use in connection with the philosophical cure of souls.
holding fast to the faithful message according to the teaching, in order that he may be able both to exhort with sound instruction and to reprove those who speak against [it]. Titus 1:9
Reprove is the same word as convict in John 16:8
And [when he] comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: John 16:8
Convict
Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich and Geoffrey William Bromiley, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans, 1985), 221-22.
1. The use outside the NT is complex. In Homer elénchō means “to scorn,” “to bring into contempt.” Later senses are a. “to shame,” b. “to blame,” c. “to expose,” “resist,” d. “to interpret,” “expound,” and e. “to investigate.” LXX meanings are “to rebuke,” “to punish,” “to condemn or convict,” “to examine,” and for the root ykḥ it denotes God’s disciplining by teaching, admonition, testing, and correction.
2. In the NT the use is restricted. With the accusative of person it means “to show people their sins and summon them to repentance,” either privately (Mt. 18:15) or congregationally (1 Tim. 5:20). The Holy Spirit does this (Jn. 16:8), as also Christ does both now (Rev. 3:19) and at the parousia (Jude 15). No one can do it to Jesus himself (Jn. 8:46). Sinners experience this exposure when faced by the prophetic call (Lk. 3:19), divine instruction (Heb. 12:5), or the law (Jms. 2:9). perí is used to denote the fault (Lk. 3:19), with hóti for elaboration (Jn. 16:9ff.). Correction as well as exposure or conviction is implied; the corresponding action is élenxis (2 Pet. 2:16) or elegmós (2 Tim. 3:16).
3. The battle against sin signified by elénchō is based on the OT and Judaism. Lev. 19:17 demands correction. Rebuke is an integral part of love for the rabbis. Prov. 3:12; Job 5:17, etc. depict God as One who educates by correction (cf. Heb. 12:5). The Jewish view of the last judgment includes the exposure of wickedness, as in Jude 15. The group plays an important role in Greek philosophy. In Plato and Aristotle the reference is to the controverting of propositions or to negative conclusions, but Epictetus is closer to the NT with his ethical use in connection with the philosophical cure of souls.
Christ does 'convict' believers' for their sin. Obviously it's not an enjoyable process. The flesh does not like to be corrected.
And have you completely forgotten the exhortation which instructs you as sons? “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, or give up [when you] are corrected by him. Hebrews 12:5
Corrected is the same word as convict in John 16:8
And [when he] comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: John 16:8
Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Nashville, TN: T. Nelson, 1996), 128-29.
CONVICT (including the KJV, “convince”)
1. elencho (ἐλέγχω, 1651) signifies (a) “to convict, confute, refute,” usually with the suggestion of putting the convicted person to shame; see Matt. 18:15, where more than telling the offender his fault is in view; it is used of “convicting” of sin, John 8:46; 16:8; gainsayers in regard to the faith, Titus 1:9; transgressors of the Law, Jas. 2:9; some texts have the verb in John 8:9; (b) “to reprove,” 1 Cor. 14:24, RV (for KJV, “convince”), for the unbeliever is there viewed as being reproved for, or “convicted” of, his sinful state; so in Luke 3:19; it is used of reproving works, John 3:20; Eph. 5:11, 13; 1 Tim. 5:20; 2 Tim. 4:2; Titus 1:13; 2:15; all these speak of reproof by word of mouth. In Heb. 12:5 and Rev. 3:19, the word is used of reproving by action. See FAULT, REBUKE, REPROVE.¶
2. exelencho (ἐξελέγχω, 1827), an intensive form of No. 1, “to convict thoroughly,” is used of the Lord’s future “conviction” of the ungodly, Jude 15.¶
Note: For diakatelencho, “to confute powerfully in disputation,” Acts 18:28 (KJV, “convinced”), see CONFUTE.¶
And have you completely forgotten the exhortation which instructs you as sons? “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, or give up [when you] are corrected by him. Hebrews 12:5
Corrected is the same word as convict in John 16:8
And [when he] comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: John 16:8
Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Nashville, TN: T. Nelson, 1996), 128-29.
CONVICT (including the KJV, “convince”)
1. elencho (ἐλέγχω, 1651) signifies (a) “to convict, confute, refute,” usually with the suggestion of putting the convicted person to shame; see Matt. 18:15, where more than telling the offender his fault is in view; it is used of “convicting” of sin, John 8:46; 16:8; gainsayers in regard to the faith, Titus 1:9; transgressors of the Law, Jas. 2:9; some texts have the verb in John 8:9; (b) “to reprove,” 1 Cor. 14:24, RV (for KJV, “convince”), for the unbeliever is there viewed as being reproved for, or “convicted” of, his sinful state; so in Luke 3:19; it is used of reproving works, John 3:20; Eph. 5:11, 13; 1 Tim. 5:20; 2 Tim. 4:2; Titus 1:13; 2:15; all these speak of reproof by word of mouth. In Heb. 12:5 and Rev. 3:19, the word is used of reproving by action. See FAULT, REBUKE, REPROVE.¶
2. exelencho (ἐξελέγχω, 1827), an intensive form of No. 1, “to convict thoroughly,” is used of the Lord’s future “conviction” of the ungodly, Jude 15.¶
Note: For diakatelencho, “to confute powerfully in disputation,” Acts 18:28 (KJV, “convinced”), see CONFUTE.¶
All scriptures that are talking about "reproving" people in the church are talking to the elders in leadership roles. Example - Titus and Timothy. Never is the word used in context of "men reproving " others as a lay person.
People ( other then leaders in the Body of Christ ) that usually say they are "reproving or rebuking others" are using that out of context and most likely just "reviling people out of malice ".
Here is another example of the word "reprove/convict/convince" being used..this case in one person dealing with one another. In this case the word means "show him" ...convince him of his wronging.
Matthew 18:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "If your brother sins, go and show him ( convince/reprove/convict ) his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
So, the word for convict/convince/reprove/expose has many applications ....we need to listen to the Holy Spirit..as it is His job to "reveal the things of Jesus to us believers "so we need to be open to take the word in context and with the view of other scriptures - looking at them through the lens of the finished work of Christ.
People ( other then leaders in the Body of Christ ) that usually say they are "reproving or rebuking others" are using that out of context and most likely just "reviling people out of malice ".
Here is another example of the word "reprove/convict/convince" being used..this case in one person dealing with one another. In this case the word means "show him" ...convince him of his wronging.
Matthew 18:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "If your brother sins, go and show him ( convince/reprove/convict ) his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
So, the word for convict/convince/reprove/expose has many applications ....we need to listen to the Holy Spirit..as it is His job to "reveal the things of Jesus to us believers "so we need to be open to take the word in context and with the view of other scriptures - looking at them through the lens of the finished work of Christ.
The law also convicts believers of sin. But we know that the law is written in our heart where the holy spirit dwells and witnesses when we sin.
But if you show partiality, you commit sin, [and thus] are convicted by the law as transgressors. James 2:9
Convicted is the same word as convict in John 16:8
And [when he] comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: John 16:8
Convict
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon
1651 ἐλέγχω [elegcho /el·eng·kho/] v. Of uncertain affinity; TDNT 2:473; TDNTA 221; GK 1794; 17 occurrences; AV translates as “reprove” six times, “rebuke” five times, “convince” four times, “tell (one’s) fault” once, and “convict” once. 1 to convict, refute, confute. 1A generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted. 1B by conviction to bring to the light, to expose. 2 to find fault with, correct. 2A by word. 2A1 to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove. 2A2 to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation. 2B by deed. 2B1 to chasten, to punish.
But if you show partiality, you commit sin, [and thus] are convicted by the law as transgressors. James 2:9
Convicted is the same word as convict in John 16:8
And [when he] comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: John 16:8
Convict
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon
1651 ἐλέγχω [elegcho /el·eng·kho/] v. Of uncertain affinity; TDNT 2:473; TDNTA 221; GK 1794; 17 occurrences; AV translates as “reprove” six times, “rebuke” five times, “convince” four times, “tell (one’s) fault” once, and “convict” once. 1 to convict, refute, confute. 1A generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted. 1B by conviction to bring to the light, to expose. 2 to find fault with, correct. 2A by word. 2A1 to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove. 2A2 to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation. 2B by deed. 2B1 to chasten, to punish.
G
Ben, between you and I, I know we can go past salvation. We both know we are eternally saved and we don't need to confess our sins to maintain salvation,prove salvation or even work at quitting sin.
But we can quench or grieve the Spirit.........step out of Gods plan for our lives.
As believers we need to recognize when and where we stepped out of His plan for our lives.
Believers confessing their sin to God..... is the believer stopping and recognizing where they stepped out of His pre-designed plan for that particular individual. It is for our benefit, not His. We will live in fear, guilt, worry, if we live in overt sin or if we try to live in our own "good" deeds.
confessing our sin to God, is naming and siting anything that we have done apart from Him or faith....... Quenching or grieving the Spirit.
This brings us back into His pre-designed plan for the believer. It has nothing to with our salvation in Christ, but everything to do with Glorifying Him in our own personal volition in this present age.
But we can quench or grieve the Spirit.........step out of Gods plan for our lives.
As believers we need to recognize when and where we stepped out of His plan for our lives.
Believers confessing their sin to God..... is the believer stopping and recognizing where they stepped out of His pre-designed plan for that particular individual. It is for our benefit, not His. We will live in fear, guilt, worry, if we live in overt sin or if we try to live in our own "good" deeds.
confessing our sin to God, is naming and siting anything that we have done apart from Him or faith....... Quenching or grieving the Spirit.
This brings us back into His pre-designed plan for the believer. It has nothing to with our salvation in Christ, but everything to do with Glorifying Him in our own personal volition in this present age.