walk in the light

[PeterJens]

I don't really care about the sin issue that you and Ken like to dwell on. That is not my issue any more. I found out there was nothing I could do about it anyway.

The only thing I can do is stop looking at it and look to the Lord Jesus Christ.

So you admit you are a slave to sin and could do nothing about it?
But what are you actually talking about?

Imagine if I describe myself as a static object in time and space. I am what I am. I have a behaviour I do not like. Take feeling hungry. No matter how hard I try, I still get hungry. There is no effort I could put in to change this reality, because it is part of having a body and being alive. I can mitigate hunger by eating regularly, controlling my energy and food needs, so the effect of hunger etc can be changed and managed. But if I want to change the aspect I do not like I have to first understand what it is and where I want to get to.

Sin is no different. Sin at its root has hurt, bitterness, revenge, self worth, love and hate all wrapped up with it.
It does not exist in isolation with a squeaky clean life except for a small series of problems.

So Grandpa I do not recognise your failure or understand what you could not overcome. This is not my experience.

In Jesus there is everything we can do to deal with sin, self pity etc. Jesus is the fountain of life, a refreshing stream, a balm to the deepest wounds, an answer to those times of real loneliness. Maybe you have never been properly close to anyone, or felt the touch of empathy, or know the limits of caring and the point of respecting another.

But to me, your position is abdication of victory or the cross for a belief in the pure spiritual is the only hope, which is essentially gnosticism.

So we will never agree, because you have given up the path Ken and I believe in and experience.

 

[FreeNChrist]

That's a meaningless statement. Faith is faith. It's what a person does with faith that matters.

It has great meaning for those who have eyes to see. Saving faith is faith in Jesus Christ alone. That’s what 2 Timothy 2:13 is telling us. “If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot disown Himself.” That is a powerful affirmation of the assurance we have in Christ. That though we are called to endure and be faithful, salvation does not ultimately rest on our faithfulness, but upon the faithfulness of Christ.

Why? Because He cannot deny Himself. The Christian's hope is rooted not in ourselves and some misconceived notion that we can keep ourselves saved, but rather, it is firmly rooted in the unchanging character of God Himself.

 

[royalscot]

still think our faith saved us. believing, is what saved you and me. (god did ,what he did,through jesus christ)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.John 3

 

[FreeNChrist]

still think our faith saved us. believing, is what saved you and me. (god did ,what he did,through jesus christ)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.John 3

And I still think that Jesus Christ saved me.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It has great meaning for those who have eyes to see. Saving faith is faith in Jesus Christ alone. That’s what 2 Timothy 2:13 is telling us. “If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot disown Himself.” That is a powerful affirmation of the assurance we have in Christ. That though we are called to endure and be faithful, salvation does not ultimately rest on our faithfulness, but upon the faithfulness of Christ.

Why? Because He cannot deny Himself. The Christian's hope is rooted not in ourselves and some misconceived notion that we can keep ourselves saved, but rather, it is firmly rooted in the unchanging character of God Himself.

We still have to believe. There is no such thing as salvation apart from faith. Being unfaithful just means not being perfect in faith. GOD remains faithful to us even though we are not perfectly faithful.

 

[FreeNChrist]

GOD remains faithful to us even though we are not perfectly faithful.

Stick with that and you will have it.

 

[KennethC]

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are Christs workmanship, created for good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

But somehow we can take ourselves out of these good works by deciding that God doesn't exist.

Seems silly to fore ordain something that won't happen. IMO

See the big red word in your post of the scripture you gave, you just proved my point I said..........

Should.........Does not make the outcome a definite one, it makes it one with still a choice, and nowhere in the bible is choice taken away.

Also we do not dwell on sin, we acknowledge it and deal with it as we are suppose to do........

Dwelling on sin means you still worry about what you have done in the past will cost you, but we do no such thing.......Our sins that were done in the past that we have repented and confessed of are cast away by the Lord never to be used against us.

We have confidence in that through Him, and we still understand we have new issues that will arise that will have to be dealt with as well. This is not dwelling on sin but dealing with it in the proper way so it will not have control over us.

If you believe their is nothing that can be done and you will always be a slave to sin, then you are already defeated and not living a life of overcoming and having victory in Jesus !!!

 

[Grandpa]

So you admit you are a slave to sin and could do nothing about it?
But what are you actually talking about?

Imagine if I describe myself as a static object in time and space. I am what I am. I have a behaviour I do not like. Take feeling hungry. No matter how hard I try, I still get hungry. There is no effort I could put in to change this reality, because it is part of having a body and being alive. I can mitigate hunger by eating regularly, controlling my energy and food needs, so the effect of hunger etc can be changed and managed. But if I want to change the aspect I do not like I have to first understand what it is and where I want to get to.

Sin is no different. Sin at its root has hurt, bitterness, revenge, self worth, love and hate all wrapped up with it.
It does not exist in isolation with a squeaky clean life except for a small series of problems.

So Grandpa I do not recognise your failure or understand what you could not overcome. This is not my experience.

In Jesus there is everything we can do to deal with sin, self pity etc. Jesus is the fountain of life, a refreshing stream, a balm to the deepest wounds, an answer to those times of real loneliness. Maybe you have never been properly close to anyone, or felt the touch of empathy, or know the limits of caring and the point of respecting another.

But to me, your position is abdication of victory or the cross for a belief in the pure spiritual is the only hope, which is essentially gnosticism.

So we will never agree, because you have given up the path Ken and I believe in and experience.

Nice try, but you're still wrong.

I don't find fault in not looking at myself and my problems, but instead looking to Christ. I will be used, or not used as the Lord sees fit.

If I wanted to, I could look to the Law and see all kinds of sin in my life due to not being Perfect as my Father in Heaven is Perfect.

I could hold this law up to each and every person and see exactly the same thing. So that EVERY mouth would be shut before God.

But I don't do that to people. Because that would be highly hypocritical. I show people what the Lord has shown me.

That we are saved by Grace through faith, and not by works.

We will never lose our salvation because He will never leave us nor forsake us.

In Jesus there is everything we can do to deal with sin, self pity etc. Jesus is the fountain of life, a refreshing stream, a balm to the deepest wounds, an answer to those times of real loneliness. Maybe you have never been properly close to anyone, or felt the touch of empathy, or know the limits of caring and the point of respecting another.

If you know any of these things why would you have a problem with anything I say?

 

[royalscot]

And I still think that Jesus Christ saved me.

he did, thats, my point,
the twist of words, of faith or walking by faith. never started till, you believed in.

then quoting the bible in context , faith has different meanings, one of them would again return, to believing in a god, to finish ,what heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee started, and not depend again on trying to win more favour in god eyes, ie your already a son or daughter of god. etc

 

[Grandpa]

See the big red word in your post of the scripture you gave, you just proved my point I said..........

Should.........Does not make the outcome a definite one, it makes it one with still a choice, and nowhere in the bible is choice taken away.

Also we do not dwell on sin, we acknowledge it and deal with it as we are suppose to do........

Dwelling on sin means you still worry about what you have done in the past will cost you, but we do no such thing.......Our sins that were done in the past that we have repented and confessed of are cast away by the Lord never to be used against us.

We have confidence in that through Him, and we still understand we have new issues that will arise that will have to be dealt with as well. This is not dwelling on sin but dealing with it in the proper way so it will not have control over us.

If you believe their is nothing that can be done and you will always be a slave to sin, then you are already defeated and not living a life of overcoming and having victory in Jesus !!!

I disagree with all your conclusions.

If God fore ordains something it is going to happen.

I don't think people can thwart Gods Plans.


But by one word you believe that we are His Workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, And fore ordained by God to walk in them, but by our own strength maybe not...

 

[PeterJens]

Saving faith is faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Jesus is the ultimate statement of love conquers all. It is a measure of Gods love, his determination to stamp righteousness matters and there are no excuses, I have walked in human form, with poverty, oppression and suffering still not sinned, so what is your excuse? It is also follow me and you also can conquer these issues.

Emotional reality is if you do not know why you do things, it is impossible to change or stop certain behaviours.
God can do many things in your life, but if you block His change in your heart, you stay a slave to certain behaviours. I have seen many christians suffering for this very reason because they do not connect who they are and think about themselves and the world with their behaviour.

Saving faith is only real if you put it into behavioural action. If I know cars can kill me, I look both ways when I cross the road. If I do not believe this I take my chances. My belief changes my behaviour.

We seem basically to disagree about the nature of what it means to be human. When I talked about automatic response mechanisms and slower analysis and reasoning systems, I was rejected as being worldly. But this approach is stupid.
A leg works by muscles, energy, nerves and the brain to tell it what to do. It is part of the structure of life.

Walking in Jesus we need to know much of our sin is embedded in our learnt responses and needs which Jesus calls us to look at and start again. This is what it means to become like a child, to begin again laying the foundations of who we are.
It is a very conscious choice, a decision to obey and follow. If you just let your learnt responses rule, you will never become what Jesus intended or fulfill saving faith. I know because I have walked this road and have changed and grown. I am not what I was, and will be something different from what I am today to Gods glory.

But this is Jesus way and promise. This is 100% not what hyper faith is preaching. Rather hyper faith believes the learnt responses will guide the believer into righteousness but actually it just perpetuates the same behaviours of old.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Jesus is the ultimate statement of love conquers all. It is a measure of Gods love, his determination to stamp righteousness matters and there are no excuses, I have walked in human form, with poverty, oppression and suffering still not sinned, so what is your excuse? It is also follow me and you also can conquer these issues.

Emotional reality is if you do not know why you do things, it is impossible to change or stop certain behaviours.
God can do many things in your life, but if you block His change in your heart, you stay a slave to certain behaviours. I have seen many christians suffering for this very reason because they do not connect who they are and think about themselves and the world with their behaviour.

Saving faith is only real if you put it into behavioural action. If I know cars can kill me, I look both ways when I cross the road. If I do not believe this I take my chances. My belief changes my behaviour.

We seem basically to disagree about the nature of what it means to be human. When I talked about automatic response mechanisms and slower analysis and reasoning systems, I was rejected as being worldly. But this approach is stupid.
A leg works by muscles, energy, nerves and the brain to tell it what to do. It is part of the structure of life.

Walking in Jesus we need to know much of our sin is embedded in our learnt responses and needs which Jesus calls us to look at and start again. This is what it means to become like a child, to begin again laying the foundations of who we are.
It is a very conscious choice, a decision to obey and follow. If you just let your learnt responses rule, you will never become what Jesus intended or fulfill saving faith. I know because I have walked this road and have changed and grown. I am not what I was, and will be something different from what I am today to Gods glory.

But this is Jesus way and promise. This is 100% not what hyper faith is preaching. Rather hyper faith believes the learnt responses will guide the believer into righteousness but actually it just perpetuates the same behaviours of old.

What we disagree about is not what it means to be human, but what it means to be a Christian.

 

[PeterJens]

If I wanted to, I could look to the Law and see all kinds of sin in my life due to not being Perfect as my Father in Heaven is Perfect.

Unfortunately you have done what people who wish to deceive do, raise a standard without specifics and claim this standard cannot be argued against.

You and I do not understand Gods total perfection, because we do not know what he expects of us and what applies only to Him. I am not omnipresent, omniscient and eternal so that limits my abilities. You are suggesting I should be like the Father in everything which is not what Jesus asked us to do. He asked us to love our enemies like the Father does. Jesus is calling this level of love perfect.

You talk about the law but again Paul commented on himself saying he obeyed the law without fault and still failed.

There is a big difference between disappointment and sin. What you are talking about is the shades of attitude, the movements between one position or understanding to another, as if this is about failure and rejection. For a person who claims to understand people and grace you are not doing very well.

Jesus accused the pharisees of not caring, of commiting sin in private but appearing righteous in public, so were hypocrites and dead inside their hearts.

If you feel I have sinned in such an obvious way please tell me. If not you have nothing against me.

So I wonder based on your response if it is just your sense of spiritual failure that drove you to hyper-grace and not sin at all, as you are incapable of describing the sin you could not free yourself from.

 

[PeterJens]

What we disagree about is not what it means to be human, but what it means to be a Christian.

The two are connected. If you believe we are somehow different entities rather than one whole, you can talk about the old man and the new man as two identities and not different aspects of our condition.

It is always dangerous to exclude basic aspects of life that every human experiences and start projecting on being a christian is a vast leap into a different spiritual reality.

Jesus is saying everyone is very close to God and a real relationship with Him. The difference between those in the Kingdom and those not is those in the kingdom have a proper relationship that matters, the light is switched on.

You want to make the difference mystical and super spiritual, so the difference is vast and not exercising faith but a special physical dimension that being born again creates, almost super human. But this has never been shown to be true, and from the world of deception and the cults.

My experience of Jesus is He makes us more human and real as we are, not as super spiritual beings at all. If anything it is in understanding our bodies, their limitations and the power of love in human form we gain real life as God intended as mortals with an eternal future. If anything religion attempts to create the other illusion, because so much of life seems immovable without the Holy Spirit changing us. Your language and attitudes and defeats just underline this reality to me again and how you deny being "religious" but are 100% mystical and non precise about everything you describe.

 

[FreeNChrist]

The two are connected. If you believe we are somehow different entities rather than one whole, you can talk about the old man and the new man as two identities and not different aspects of our condition.

It is always dangerous to exclude basic aspects of life that every human experiences and start projecting on being a christian is a vast leap into a different spiritual reality.

Jesus is saying everyone is very close to God and a real relationship with Him. The difference between those in the Kingdom and those not is those in the kingdom have a proper relationship that matters, the light is switched on.

You want to make the difference mystical and super spiritual, so the difference is vast and not exercising faith but a special physical dimension that being born again creates, almost super human. But this has never been shown to be true, and from the world of deception and the cults.

My experience of Jesus is He makes us more human and real as we are, not as super spiritual beings at all. If anything it is in understanding our bodies, their limitations and the power of love in human form we gain real life as God intended as mortals with an eternal future. If anything religion attempts to create the other illusion, because so much of life seems immovable without the Holy Spirit changing us. Your language and attitudes and defeats just underline this reality to me again and how you deny being "religious" but are 100% mystical and non precise about everything you describe.

I take it back, we disagree about the nature of man as well.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Unfortunately you have done what people who wish to deceive do, raise a standard without specifics and claim this standard cannot be argued against.

You and I do not understand Gods total perfection, because we do not know what he expects of us and what applies only to Him. I am not omnipresent, omniscient and eternal so that limits my abilities. You are suggesting I should be like the Father in everything which is not what Jesus asked us to do. He asked us to love our enemies like the Father does. Jesus is calling this level of love perfect.

You talk about the law but again Paul commented on himself saying he obeyed the law without fault and still failed.

There is a big difference between disappointment and sin. What you are talking about is the shades of attitude, the movements between one position or understanding to another, as if this is about failure and rejection. For a person who claims to understand people and grace you are not doing very well.

Jesus accused the pharisees of not caring, of commiting sin in private but appearing righteous in public, so were hypocrites and dead inside their hearts.

If you feel I have sinned in such an obvious way please tell me. If not you have nothing against me.

So I wonder based on your response if it is just your sense of spiritual failure that drove you to hyper-grace and not sin at all, as you are incapable of describing the sin you could not free yourself from.

We are without a specific standard? Really?

 

[PeterJens]

We are without a specific standard? Really?

You are the one claiming you have a standard as to what perfection is.
Please tell me specifically what you think perfection is in Gods terms and how you fail?

Now if you cannot, then I am right, if you can define it and it is confirmed by the Lord, then I am wrong.

I am happy to be wrong, but I know both scripture and the Lord, so I suggest you have made up your own impossible standards and cannot face the fact it is a feeling of failure and lack of communion with the Lord that is the source of your failure.

 

[PeterJens]

I take it back, we disagree about the nature of man as well.

The nature of man is important to understand to obtain the correct or clear understanding of what Jesus is talking about.

His core message is we are lost, victims of sin and isolation as humans born into families.
His core solution is an offer of love and spiritual security upon which we can build a healthy righteous life.

As a closed down child with little emotional communication in my family I would not have put love as the key eternal issue in life. Now, today, I would 100% say this is true. It is our sin and isolation that denies this reality, and our failure to recognise our deep deep needs just to be understood and accepted. I know this reality because I did not understand how deeply I distrusted everyone and defended myself against them.

The phrase is "God is love"

Now this love is not guarded, cute, squishy, love, this is brutal, in your face, overwhelming, unstoppable love that counts nothing as too high or difficult to do if it will help. If you begin to understand the cross, and how much it hurt to call disciples and then turn them away by saying unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood you cannot have fellowship with Jesus.

Countless brothers and sisters have gone to their deaths proclaiming the glorious love and holiness of our Father in heaven who sent His son to show how deep and glorious is His heart for those who open up and let the kingdom reign within.

But righteousness is the backbone, without the right priorities nothing works, even God.
This is why Jesus expressed his desire to not drink the cup, but bowed the knee to the Fathers will, because this was the only way. As Jesus did so we also are called to understand the choices and then submit in love because His name is worthy.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is how righteousness comes to a believer....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious...we have a new creation in Christ now!

Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness..when you see who you are in Him in your new man..you become like Him outwardly.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells..

 

[Grace777x70]

One can be self-focused or Christ-focused.

We choose to be Christ focused and to believe what He did for us on the cross and in our resurrection with Him with the creation of the new man.....the inner man of the heart created in Christ Jesus in righteousness and true holiness. We identify that our "old man" dies with Him and that we have been raised up in the new man in Christ now..seek Him now!



That we believe His life in us changes us. We believe grace teaches us how to live in this world.

Titus 2:11-12 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

I realize that these beliefs in the grace of God....especially the acceptance grace and the total forgiveness that Jesus bought and paid for with His blood....that these can be offensive to our religious beliefs and what we have been taught in church.