walk in the light

[Grace777x70]

Paul identified believers in Christ as saints now.

15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.


Example for those who WOULD believe in Him, Not as an example who have believed in Him, big difference. You're using it as an example for those who are saved. And ignoring the ones that clearly say those who are saved are new creations.

Do you realize that he was the foremost sinner because persecuted the church? Paul is referring to himself before Christ. Why? So they would understand that they could be saved.

1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Ephesians 3:8
Although I am less than the least of all the Lord's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ,

We all were chief sinners which is why Christ came into the world to save us....Paul was identifying with the rest of the world when he said he was the chief of sinners....after Christ we are new creations in Him..called saints....

1 Timothy 1:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

 

[Grace777x70]

Very true..there are some that look at the term "sinner" and they think of identity and then there are some that think of sinning..the action.

Some people believe we have a new creation..a new man of the heart..a new inner man. It's this new nature that defines who we are. We have been created in Christ Jesus in righteousness and true holiness in our new man.

It's all a question of identity.

I maintain that Paul did not write "..to the sinners ( identity ) at Rome, Ephesus, Colossae, Corinth Galatia..etc..


We are called saints but we do sin sometimes..


The apostle of grace called himself the “chief of sinners” (1 Tim 1:15) and ever since then Christians have been confused about their identity. They say things like “I’m a sinner saved by grace” even though the Bible declares they are a saint (Eph 1:1, Php 1:1).So what are you? A saint or a sinner or a bit of both?

Here is a grace-based teaching on Paul the chief of sinners..if anyone is interested in that...

The Chief of Sinners – Escape to Reality

 

[KennethC]

Paul identified believers in Christ as saints now.

15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.


Example for those who WOULD believe in Him, Not as an example who have believed in Him, big difference. You're using it as an example for those who are saved. And ignoring the ones that clearly say those who are saved are new creations.

Do you realize that he was the foremost sinner because persecuted the church? Paul is referring to himself before Christ. Why? So they would understand that they could be saved.

1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Ephesians 3:8
Although I am less than the least of all the Lord's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ,

We all were chief sinners which is why Christ came into the world to save us....Paul was identifying with the rest of the world when he said he was the chief of sinners....after Christ we are new creations in Him..called saints....

1 Timothy 1:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

I know what Paul did before his conversion, yet he still considered himself a sinner because of that........

Paul was addressing in the same way as John laid out in 1 John 1:8-10 !!!

Paul even told the Philippians that he was not perfect yet, but now day doctrine's either say we already are or that it is not possible to achieve. Paul did not believe it was impossible to achieve, nor did he say he already was !!!

 

[Grace777x70]

okie dokie......

 

[PeterJens]

Without an emotional reference point or even admiting emotions are part of who we are, there is no way to empathise or find reality.

The word empathise summarises the ability of one individual to feel the feelings another is going through. It is part of how we work together. Now a psychopath has zero ability to do this or someone with aspburgers syndrome misses this aspect of relationships.

It is difficult to talk about Jesus without feelings being part of the conversation.
Paul talks about being hurt, encouraged, brought low which are all empathetic states.

It makes me wonder if this part is actually missing in these believers. Self indulgence, getting what you want through manipulation is the big end goal, and the manipulaters have zero care for who gets in the way. This is why the teachers in their great mansions do not care if their congregation starves because the teacher is comfortable, rewarded for his ministry with wealth and health in this world.

I fear for their soul on the day of judgement.

 

[Grace777x70]

Feelings within themselves are not barometers of truth. Feelings that are not birthed from the truth of who we really are now in Christ because of the finished work of Christ, can become strongholds that the enemy can oppress us and use these "feelings" to deceive us.

They leave us navel-gazing at ourselves instead of focusing on our identity in Christ now. Greater is He that is in us then he that is in the world.

No one is saying emotions are bad......you just can't necessarily live your life based on them.

Some emotions make us look "inward" and it is all about "us".

Faith makes us look "upward" to what the Lord Jesus already has done for us. Emotions coming from our spirit go "outward" to others and "upward" to God are the good ones to hold on to.

Many sincere people think that there is virtue in discussing the old problems and debating the details of past darkness under the disguise of being truthful and open.

The truth that frees one to be truly free indeed is in who we are now in Christ. The issue is not what Adam did or we did wrong but what God did right.

This is the life-changing aspect of the gospel of the grace of Christ. It's all about the new creation in Christ..walking in His life that bears His fruit in and through us.

In His death ( we died with Him ) the old things ( the way of living from the flesh of the deeds of the old man who is dead..along with his old habits ) have passed away.

BEHOLD ( which means to look, to see, to perceive ) all things have become new. 2 Cor 5:17

Forget the old and acquaint yourself with the new man now. ..who you are in Christ now....the new inner man which has been created in righteousness and holiness. See what Christ has made you and you will outwardly manifest who you already are in your new man of the heart.

This is how we are changed..by "beholding the glory ( goodness ) of the Lord "..we are transformed.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

are being transformed = present tense and passive voice

present tense = continuous action

passive voice = an action happening to you from an outside force - not you doing the action

This "being transformed" word is the same word used for when Jesus was on the mount with Moses and Elijah and was "transfigured" before the 3 disciples. Jesus manifested outwardly who He already was on the inside of Him.

Beholding Christ within us and in the word .... we see Him as in a mirror - we see ourselves in Him...this is how we change to become outwardly who we already are in Him.

This is the true Christian life and it is all based on Him and His life in us!

 

[FreeNChrist]

Feelings within themselves are not barometers of truth.

No kidding. They are terrible barometers of truth. Emotions are dumb. They cannot differentiate between reality and fantasy. They are merely responders, and what they respond to is our thoughts, to what we are thinking. You can be absolutely terrified with fear in a movie theater watching a horror movie, even though there is no actual danger to you at all. Which is why God appeals to our minds and not our emotions.

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen!

There is nothing wrong with having emotions....we all have them.. .which is why Jesus said constantly ''"Fear not...don't be afraid"....there is nothing wrong with having these feelings per se but they are not what we live by....nor are we to focus on them apart from our true identity in Christ....so the Lord was constantly keeping the disciples grounded in truth instead of how they "felt".

No kidding. They are terrible barometers of truth. Emotions are dumb. They cannot differentiate between reality and fantasy. They are merely responders, and what they respond to is our thoughts, to what we are thinking. You can be absolutely terrified with fear in a movie theater watching a horror movie, even though there is no actual danger to you at all. Which is why God appeals to our minds and not our emotions.

 

[PeterJens]

Feelings within themselves are not barometers of truth. Feelings that are not birthed from the truth of who we really are now in Christ because of the finished work of Christ, can become strongholds that the enemy can oppress us and use these "feelings" to deceive us.

You obviously are scared of your feelings. Feelings are only a summary of how you are reacting to a situation either currently or in the past. Sometimes they can be abberant ie a biological and physical response like a depressive illness.

Truth is outside of our subjective reactions, but feelings tell us what we feeling about the current situation.
For those who suppress their emotions and impose only the acceptable face of what they regard as an ok reaction, they have no clue what is going on inside them, because they spend all their time ignoring who they are.

A psychotic disorder occurs when the feelings are so cut off from the real world, there is no way of predicting a response.

So feelings matter a lot and letting the Lord sort them out is part of walking with Him. It is also why sin is often so difficult to deal with because our emotions do not want us to face our behaviour and certainly not change it. It is often emotions that make us believe absurd ideas. It is emotions that make us want to accept a particular set of ideas, and reject another.

An atheist scientist will therefore reject any evidence that suggests God is the creator, not because of the evidence but because of his faith. We all suffer these biases, but being aware of them helps us understand both the challenge a set of ideas has and what the issues are at the core.

Faith is extremely emotional, especially when the Lord does something unusual or meets a need, or helps someone through a difficult situation. I had one person claim they can praise the Lord without an emotional high, but I know that is impossible unless ofcourse you do not really believe its true. God loves me, to which I respond wow, a sinner such as me with all my failings, that is real grace. If you want to make me cry, tell me he died for me. I cry not because of my sin, but because he who had everything came and died for me, and every person who trusts Him. The difference is so vast, to call me precious is the greatest gift in the universe.

 

[Grace777x70]

oh brother......did you not read anything that was said?. .never mind don't answer that.....

 

[PeterJens]

oh brother......did you not read anything that was said?. .never mind don't answer that.....

oh brother......did you not read anything that was said?. .

No I know you do not understand one major issue in what I am writing, but you want to push your agenda even though it makes no real sense.

 

[PeterJens]

Walking in the light

It is strange how walking in honesty and openness could involve bondage to sin, being under the law, and not being saved.
But that is how far from simple reality hyper-grace is.

 

[Grandpa]

Confused?

Everyone needs to learn how to speak from the heart, to let out who they are, and not be afraid. Jesus died so that we might become real. Being real is everything. And knowing love and loving is life itself.

You have not experienced this or else you would not speak like you do.

You don't think I was being real?

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

You don't see any parallels here, between what I just told you and what Paul told the Galatians?

You don't see any parallels between what you try to do and try to get others to do and trying to perfect yourself by your own effort?

So yes, you are confused. Or, you are purposely steering people away from Christ and towards their own efforts at righteousness.

I try to look to the good in people, so I think you are just confused. You mean well, just like every humanist, judaizer, and arminian before you. I just have to think that you don't fully understand what Christ does for us and what we can't do ourselves. I think this is the confusion of most people. Seeing what they want to see instead of letting the Light show them the Truth.

 

[PeterJens]

You don't see any parallels between what you try to do and try to get others to do and trying to perfect yourself by your own effort?

I think we use labels in different ways. Have you ever learnt to cook? You go in the kitchen and are told what to do. You do it, at each stage you follow the instructions and in the end you have a meal. Who did the cooking? You did. Whose direction, wisdom and understanding did you use, your instructor.

This is Jesus's example to us. The sermon on the mount is a set of instructions, examples, commands, advice. It ends with if you put this into action you are doing well.

Now for you obeying the advice of our Lord is sin, legalism and wrong. That is actual rebellion and holding yourself above the Lord. Or do you not see this simple logic and relationship.

We are called to follow. Following is doing, not sitting there and doing what you want. Being yoked is doing what the Lord is doing. Jesus said He did what the Father had given Him to do.

Now if you knew this once and have walked away, then you have missed something very fundamental.
In all seriousness if you cannot see the difference between being a legalistic Jew and what I am saying, you do not know what Jesus or Paul is talking about.

I know lostness. I know the people I love who do not let me in to their lives and have lost hearts. I know people dear to me in the Lord who have found reality and truth walking with the Lord and are walking deeper.

I do not know what you are saying because it is like a dream of a problem which does not exist but you are very concerned it is essential I find it. At what point do you realise I know Gods love, I am not self righteous, I share and teach and live these things, yet for you I am empty.

 

[Grandpa]

I think we use labels in different ways. Have you ever learnt to cook? You go in the kitchen and are told what to do. You do it, at each stage you follow the instructions and in the end you have a meal. Who did the cooking? You did. Whose direction, wisdom and understanding did you use, your instructor.

This is Jesus's example to us. The sermon on the mount is a set of instructions, examples, commands, advice. It ends with if you put this into action you are doing well.

Now for you obeying the advice of our Lord is sin, legalism and wrong. That is actual rebellion and holding yourself above the Lord. Or do you not see this simple logic and relationship.

We are called to follow. Following is doing, not sitting there and doing what you want. Being yoked is doing what the Lord is doing. Jesus said He did what the Father had given Him to do.

Now if you knew this once and have walked away, then you have missed something very fundamental.
In all seriousness if you cannot see the difference between being a legalistic Jew and what I am saying, you do not know what Jesus or Paul is talking about.

I know lostness. I know the people I love who do not let me in to their lives and have lost hearts. I know people dear to me in the Lord who have found reality and truth walking with the Lord and are walking deeper.

I do not know what you are saying because it is like a dream of a problem which does not exist but you are very concerned it is essential I find it. At what point do you realise I know Gods love, I am not self righteous, I share and teach and live these things, yet for you I am empty.

I used to think that. Same as you.

I viewed the bible as a set of instructions that I needed to follow. And the better I did then the more I would be blessed.

It ended with the Sermon on the Mount. I couldn't do what the Lord Commanded. And I didn't understand why not.


So I asked the Lord for help. I asked the Lord what was wrong with me. Why I couldn't do it. And the Lord showed me why I couldn't do it and why I needed His Help. He showed me why no one can do it. Everyone needs the Lord Jesus.


For your analogy it would be like you were given a recipe. But the ingredients were all found on different planets. And you have no space ship.

I don't pretend I am the one doing the "cooking". It is strange to me that people still pretend they are the ones "cooking". Even with all the bible and the Lord Jesus telling them it isn't so.


I am talking to you as a Christian to another Christian. If you are not yet a Christian there is a LOT of work for you to do before you find out you need help as well. But after you ask the Lord for help that is when you receive rest.


Are you able to forgive people of their sins against God like the Lord Jesus? That sounds a little ridiculous, doesn't it? Can you cleanse people of their sin, of their conscience of transgression against God? Sounds a little ridiculous, doesn't it? The best thing we can do is lead people to Christ. The One who CAN do the work.

The Work of the Lord is what makes us Christians. Not our performance of a list that someone thinks needs to be performed.

Ephesians 2:8-10
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

When we become Christians does this ever change? Is there suddenly a list of requirements in order to climb our way to heaven?

 

[PeterJens]

I used to think that. Same as you.

I am glad to understood you cannot follow the sermon on the mount without Jesus.
Ofcourse this is the case. There is nothing we can do without communion with the Lord, He is our life, our strength, our being.

Now this is walking with Jesus 101. Now I share a lot on these threads, but I do nothing on my own.
I do not know how to. It is obvious to me people are testifying to failure to walk in the sermon on the mount but not finding empowerment. That suggests to me they are still not at the first base with Jesus.

Is it really that hard to love as Jesus loved you? Are your defences still so active you cannot become vulnerable?
Do you not trust the Lord your maker and the Lord your saviour?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Believers are definitely in the light. The scriptures are clear on this.

Ephesians 5:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light ( we should be walking out who we are in the light..but it's through Him we do that. )

Colossians 1:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

1 Thessalonians 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

Grace, you have never started a thread that I have not enjoyed immensely and gotten so much good from. Same here, and I'm only on the first page!

When I get sidetracked and I stop trusting Him (abiding), choosing to gnaw on and worry over something earthly instead of insisting on just letting Him do whatever He sees fit, it gets real dark, real quick. If I go on that way, (and I know when I am going on that way, I absolutely know it)it seems to become nearly impossible to get back to Him. Everything presses in on me and it's like I become...entangled in it and can't break out of it. Lots of times it gets sort of triggered by a news story I hear that is heartbreaking.But that isn't accurate really, the thing that triggers it is I stop abiding, but I can go on in this darkness for a while before I become too miserable and then a news story crashes it all down very suddenly. And here's the thing I forget first (which if I didn't forget, it would be okay but I do forget because I can no longer SEE it): I forget to call to Him. It happens every time I disobey and decide, huh uh, I'm gonna gnaw on this bone and I just don't care that I'm not supposed to.

I become terrified and distraught and I go immediately to my bible, to sermons, to spiritual readings, you name it, I try it. But the one thing I forget to do is CALL TO HIM.

I think what is actually occurring is that I am hiding from Him. But in the hiding, I become deceived that I AM hiding because I begin to do everything I can think of to find Him again. (Except call to Him). It's like I am looking for a way back to Him and His rest, but trying to do so on my OWN terms. Like a dog trying to bring some filthy thing into the house and you have a battle with him because he doesn't want to put down this thing he's been gnawing on outside, he wants to bring it in and continue to gnaw on it but you make him put it down before you let him back in.

To me, that's the difference between walking in the light and having fellowship with God and walking in darkness and deceit.

 

[Grace777x70]

Grace, you have never started a thread that I have not enjoyed immensely and gotten so much good from. Same here, and I'm only on the first page!

When I get sidetracked and I stop trusting Him (abiding), choosing to gnaw on and worry over something earthly instead of insisting on just letting Him do whatever He sees fit, it gets real dark, real quick. If I go on that way, (and I know when I am going on that way, I absolutely know it)it seems to become nearly impossible to get back to Him. Everything presses in on me and it's like I become...entangled in it and can't break out of it. Lots of times it gets sort of triggered by a news story I hear that is heartbreaking.But that isn't accurate really, the thing that triggers it is I stop abiding, but I can go on in this darkness for a while before I become too miserable and then a news story crashes it all down very suddenly. And here's the thing I forget first (which if I didn't forget, it would be okay but I do forget because I can no longer SEE it): I forget to call to Him. It happens every time I disobey and decide, huh uh, I'm gonna gnaw on this bone and I just don't care that I'm not supposed to.

I become terrified and distraught and I go immediately to my bible, to sermons, to spiritual readings, you name it, I try it. But the one thing I forget to do is CALL TO HIM.

I think what is actually occurring is that I am hiding from Him. But in the hiding, I become deceived that I AM hiding because I begin to do everything I can think of to find Him again. (Except call to Him). It's like I am looking for a way back to Him and His rest, but trying to do so on my OWN terms. Like a dog trying to bring some filthy thing into the house and you have a battle with him because he doesn't want to put down this thing he's been gnawing on outside, he wants to bring it in and continue to gnaw on it but you make him put it down before you let him back in.

To me, that's the difference between walking in the light and having fellowship with God and walking in darkness and deceit.

I understand and it is comforting to know that no matter what, our Lord remains the same to us even if our "stinking thinking" draws us to another place. He speaks quietly to our spirits that is in the light and then this renews our mind back to what the truth is. There are facts and then there is the truth. Truth always supersedes facts.

The Lord is showing me the same thing too..to come to HIM....that's how Abraham and Sarah had their faith intact..."they judged HIM faithful"...there is a difference between reading the scriptures and coming to Him. Thank you for reminding me of this truth. It is all about Jesus and our good, loving Father and knowing their true heart for us.

It's good to see you back...we missed you....

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I understand and it is comforting to know that no matter what, our Lord remains the same to us even if our "stinking thinking" draws us to another place. He speaks quietly to our spirits that is in the light and then this renews our mind back to what the truth is. There are facts and then there is the truth. Truth always supersedes facts.

The Lord is showing me the same thing too..to come to HIM....that's how Abraham and Sarah had their faith intact..."they judged HIM faithful"...there is a difference between reading the scriptures and coming to Him. Thank you for reminding me of this truth. It is all about Jesus and our good, loving Father and knowing their true heart for us.

It's good to see you back...we missed you....

Oh yes! He remains faithful even when we don't.
What parent would let their child wander into traffic and not snatch them back?
Even I myself have not managed to snatch me from His hand!

Was I gone all that long??

Hey, I've been furiously trying to find a thread by you because there was a man whose sermon was good and I don't remember his name but would like to hear more from him. I think his first name was Joseph? What was his last name? I'm useless and can't find the thread because I didn't reply in it because I went to the link and listened and now can't find the thread!

 

[Grace777x70]

Oh yes! He remains faithful even when we don't.
What parent would let their child wander into traffic and not snatch them back?
Even I myself have not managed to snatch me from His hand!

Was I gone all that long??

Hey, I've been furiously trying to find a thread by you because there was a man whose sermon was good and I don't remember his name but would like to hear more from him. I think his first name was Joseph? What was his last name? I'm useless and can't find the thread because I didn't reply in it because I went to the link and listened and now can't find the thread!

No one can snatch us out of our Father's hand nor our Lord......

Hmmm.what was the sermon about? There is Joseph Prince that teaches grace and always uplifts Jesus...