WARNING!the Baptist religion is a cult!

[Baptistrw]

Good! If man does not need to solve it, and all I have to do is read the Bible to understand it, and having read the Bible come to belive in Jesus from the Catholic viewpoint, then bam! done! Catholics do not believe you can work your way into heaven. Only you and people who think as you say we believe that.

The Catholic Church does not teach that works save you. The Catholic Church teaches that faith saves you. She believes that if you have faith then you will also do things, actions if you will, that are essentially fruits of your belief. You will know a tree by the fruit it bears. This means that we believe, that if a person has faith - by which alone they may be saved - then they will do things, like live a Christian lifestyle, pray, worship God, keep holy the Sabbath, conform their lives to a Christian lifestyle. This also means they will not cheat, steal, lie, slander, act out of harted, etc. The lifestyle that a Christian leads is the fruit of their tree, so to speak. This is how "Faith without works is dead" applies to the Catholic understanding of salvation. It means you can't have faith and fail to live as a Christain ought to and expect everything to be just peachy. It means you can't be an apple tree that bears rotten apples and expect the farmer not to cut you down for being a bad tree. The faith saves you, the works (Christian living) are the fruit of a healthy tree. The fruit in and of itself means nothing without the faith. Living a good, moral lifestyle and being a peaceful little heathen means nothing because there is no faith in Jesus Christ. So no, works never save you, for even a pagan can do good works. The Catholic Church believes faith saves you, and faith will produce a desire to do good works: faith will make the tree want to produce good fruit, and a tree that does not produce good fruit is a dead tree. That is the point.

Have you read the Catholic catechism?

 

[suaso]

Yes I have...

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"43

183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk 16:16).

Maybe this will be helpful to some: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0303sbs.asp

 

[Baptistrw]

Yes I have...

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"43

183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk 16:16).

Maybe this will be helpful to some: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0303sbs.asp

You quote 2 things that agree, not quoting however the parts that show works are required for one to be saved:
Ones initial justification comes through baptism, 1262-1274
See especially 1263.. all sins for forgiven by baptism...

Also 1257... It says ''The Lord affirms Himself that baptism is necessary for salvation''.. that's a works gospel and a false gospel.. Baptism is a step of obedience one takes after salvation.

See also:
Adults must prepare for justification through faith and good works, 1247-1249
Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works, 1212, 1392, 2010
Salvation from the eternal consequences of sin is a lifelong process, 161-162, 1254-1255

Taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1994 edition

 

[1Corinthians13]

WWJD? Tell us all to jump on the Peace Train and love, love, love! Dad you're funny Love God, Love Jesus, love each other. lovelovelove

 

[suaso]

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God. 1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, "the tinder for sin" (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."67 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules

Yup. You are forgiven your sins through baptism, but not the sins you commit after baptism. After baptism, your faith in Christ saves you as you continue to live a Christian lifestyle through a life of repentance. Baptism does not prevent the baptised from sinning. The Catholic idea of salvation also believes that you can loose salvation through sinning without repenting. You repent when you have faith in the forgiveness of Christ and understand that what you have done was wrong and ask for forgiveness. Being forgiven, you are in a state of grace, which means you are currently saved. Salvation for us is not a "well, I was saved and I can't sin anymore" thing.

Keep in mind: those "works" as you call them (living a Christian life, repenting from sins" are salvific only because they require the saving faith that moves one to do these things. In and of themself, isolated, they are meaningless. If i partake of the Eucharist daily but to not believe in it, I am sinning and might as well not be sharing in communion. Partaking in the sacraments is part of the Christian lifestyle to us, motivated by faith in Christ.

 

[suaso]

oh, maybe we should move this stuff to the other thread so as not to spoil a good joke with our discussion?

 

[roaringkitten]

The Catholic Church does not teach that works save you. The Catholic Church teaches that faith saves you.

suaso, you made this reply earlier in another thread:

As for salvation, I believe that because we are not robots with no free will, that we can choose to do sinful things despite our faith in Christ. Believing in Christ and accepting the Christian message as truth does not take away one's ability to commit a sin. Christians are every bit as capable of lying, cheating, stealing, murdering, etc as anyone else. Some one argue that those who do these things are not actually Christians. I disagree with that. I say they are Christians, only they are Christians who are not very good at being Christians. Faith in Christ does save the believer, but living the faith will lead to salvation. Salvation, I believe, can be lost through sin after accepting on faith the truth of Christ. It can also be regained through repentance and the asking of forgiveness.

I think you are confused. First you say that works do not save you and that it is faith that saves you. I HAVE read the Catholic catechism. You are clearly showing works in the highlighted portion of your post regarding to salvation. If no works were necessary to get salvation, then why would bad works get one lost again? The merits are ALL Christ! This position of yours makes no sense. Which is why I am concerned you are believing in your personal efforts to "work at " getting salvation secured....We get eternal life the moment we believe! It isn't a process that is drug out! That is completely in violation of Scripture!

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:17

Everlasting life is something OBTAINED! Not worked for! It is not some drawn out process like many false teachers teach it!

 

[Baptistrw]

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God. 1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, "the tinder for sin" (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."67 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules

Yup. You are forgiven your sins through baptism, but not the sins you commit after baptism. After baptism, your faith in Christ saves you as you continue to live a Christian lifestyle through a life of repentance. Baptism does not prevent the baptised from sinning. The Catholic idea of salvation also believes that you can loose salvation through sinning without repenting. You repent when you have faith in the forgiveness of Christ and understand that what you have done was wrong and ask for forgiveness. Being forgiven, you are in a state of grace, which means you are currently saved. Salvation for us is not a "well, I was saved and I can't sin anymore" thing.

Keep in mind: those "works" as you call them (living a Christian life, repenting from sins" are salvific only because they require the saving faith that moves one to do these things. In and of themself, isolated, they are meaningless. If i partake of the Eucharist daily but to not believe in it, I am sinning and might as well not be sharing in communion. Partaking in the sacraments is part of the Christian lifestyle to us, motivated by faith in Christ.

Baptism does not forgive any sins at all. Nor is it required for salvation.

 

[roaringkitten]

By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin

You are not saved by water baptism! That is works! It is even made clear that baptism is not even part of the gospel! Water baptism is obedience to the Lord as a believer(ie: a fruit of faith)....


". . . Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." Corinthians 1:17

 

[Abing]

hahhaha i thought this was serious LOL!! noahsdad... HOLLA!
and yeah i agree, baptist religion is a cult!!

 

[carpetmanswife]

Dad you've lost control of your thread....*shakes head*.

 

[roaringkitten]

Yet again, we are talking serious matters in here and some just like to make jokes about something as serious as salvation.....Go play in the playground threads why dont you. That would be greatly appreciated.

 

[carpetmanswife]

this thread was started out as a joke...its totally off topic from what i see..it belongs BACK in the catholic thread

 

[suaso]

I agree with carpetmanswife. Kitten, THIS is a non-serious thread which has been greatly de-railed. Again...lets move our drama to the other thread, eh?

 

[Abing]

is it not? hehe, i thought so - i was being serious though -

 

[1Corinthians13]

Yet again, we are talking serious matters in here and some just like to make jokes about something as serious as salvation.....Go play in the playground threads why dont you. That would be greatly appreciated.

I seldom post in here and find the whole site has become a playground for some the last couple years; however I believe Jesus wants us to believe and obey and not to argue. Just trying to keep it simple for the young ones in here.

 

[Ancilla]

Clearly, the original "WARNING! Catholicism is a false religion!" thread is causing a lot of pain on both sides of the issue.

I'm not surprised. I've been deliberatly avoiding that thread. I mean first of all, I don't have the degrees in comparitive religion that I'm assuming Roaringkitten has in order to make those kind of statements. I mean, if she did her thesis on the differences between what the Roman Catholic church teaches and what the Prostestant Bible teaches and she wants to share that with us... Well, I guess that's ok, but she can't expect not to hurt any of the 1.1 billion Catholics there are in the world.

See, I'd never get into that. I believe that the Bible is pretty clear about it not ok to sin in order to prevent someone else from sinning. Ultimately you have to let others be responsible for their own actions, because we will definitly held accountable for our actions, and we can't use preventing someone else from sinning to justify this. This is basically how I feel about gay rights issues. We can't tell lies about them in an attempt to prevent them disobeying Romans 1:26-27.* If someone is living in sin, we pray that the Holy Spirit will show them the error of their ways, BUT if they self-professed, lunatic fringe Christians tell lies about them (such as God hates them or that they chose to feel that way or that they're bad parents and other lies I've heard that I don't want to repeat) then they'll likely never know enough of the truth to let the Holy Spirit into their life.

But how that relates to Catholisim is that my English Canadian (sometimes Masonic) ansestors did at lot of sinning in the name of their belief that Roman Catholisim is wrong, and I don't want their legacy to continue with me.

But I want everyone who thinks Catholisim is wrong to consider this: I've done a lot of research on Mormonism** They teach that the "true" church of Jesus ceased to exist not long after the Accension and that it wasn't restablished until Joseph Smith came on the scene in the nineteenth century. I read in a book written by a Mormon for Mormons use examples of top level corruption in the Roman Catholic Church prior to the Reformation that Jesus had abandoned the Church. Well, in an exccellent book I read called "What every Mormon should ask" an ex-Mormon turned Doctorate of Divinity, said that Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." In other words, we believe that the church never ceased to exist because Jesus himself promised to shepeard it.

*In an effort to avoid going off topic, I'm going to ask posters to keep their views on homosexuality for a thread on that topic.
**Again, if you want to talk about Mormonism, please do so on another thread.

 

[Ancilla]

I believe Jesus wants us to believe and obey and not to argue. Just trying to keep it simple for the young ones in here.

I agree. My ex-boyfriend (an Anglican, aka Episcopalian. The US had to change the name of their Anglican church after the American revolution because all things England fell vey much out of favour. They also took the "u" out of "favour" which is a funny pun if you think about it. But anyway, the Anglican church was started by Elizabeth I as a compromise for the Catholic/Protestant divided country, so we basically have Protestant doctrine with a lot of the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church) blogged on the topic of Roman Catholism. He said that his hero Rich Mullins started taking a hard look at Catholosim when he realized how many of his favourite Christian authors were Catholic. He said something to the effect of "The real question is whne God wants me to look past my views and when He wants me to stand by them." That to me just hit the nail on the head.

 

[lifetime]

oh ... that was a joke?

 

[Abing]

oh ... that was a joke?

haha it mighthave turned out to be one
but i believe there's truth in it