Was Paul an apostle or a disciple?

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psalms118

New member
May 17, 2021
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#21
Maybe this is naive, but don't we have to trust Paul's letters in what he says about being an apostle? Acts makes clear that Paul is a trusted and powerful authority on God, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the gospel, right? And Acts was written by Luke, who wrote the gospel of the same name right? So if we reject Pauls writing, don't we also reject Luke the writer's testimony about him and his character? And if we do that don't we also call the rest of his writings, including the gospel itself, into doubt?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,424
113
#22
Paul’s pharicytical origin helped him because he knew the law and prophets then Jesus gave him revelation through receiving the Holy Ghost that was one of Paul’s gifts when he received the spirit

it’s interesting that he was such an advanced Pharisee in the law , I think it’s why he understood things like this so well and was so adament about it because Paul had rejected Christianity first he knew why and was explaining it

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:14-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬
God chose Paul as a man that knew scripture so thoroughly. The Lord didn't change anything with Christ, all was fulfilled in Christ.

As we study the old testament, it is to be understood as explaining God, and that all was fulfilled in Christ. The duties of the High Priest are the duties of Christ. The temple is fulfilled as the earthly temple is no more but we are the temple. The spiritual understanding of these things are alive and well today in he fulfillment that Christ brought about.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
11,984
4,877
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#23
God chose Paul as a man that knew scripture so thoroughly. The Lord didn't change anything with Christ, all was fulfilled in Christ.

As we study the old testament, it is to be understood as explaining God, and that all was fulfilled in Christ. The duties of the High Priest are the duties of Christ. The temple is fulfilled as the earthly temple is no more but we are the temple. The spiritual understanding of these things are alive and well today in he fulfillment that Christ brought about.
“God chose Paul as a man that knew scripture so thoroughly. The Lord didn't change anything with Christ, all was fulfilled in Christ. “

“The Lord didn't change anything with Christ,”

the beginning

“And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:23-24‬ ‭

the law of Moses which came more than 1500 years after this because man had become sinful and had hard hearts

note the change from the beginning to Moses word about the matter because now it’s being said to sinners with hard hearts

“When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭24:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

now again note the change back to the truth that was before the law ever came if you are open this is pretty clear

If you can acknowledge this is a different commandment then we are agreed

“The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives:

but from the beginning it was not so.

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19:3-9‬ ‭

he even explains that it’s different because thier hearts were hard from sin . it changes in the beginning , then came the law , and then changed back in the gospel . You know how your talking about the temple and priesthood change ? The law changes too

“For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we need what Christ taught what Moses taught contradicts the gospel at nearly every point

one says “ eye for an eye tooth for tooth , the other says “ turn the other cheek forgive the transgression “

when Jesus died for us that’s the fulfillment of the law when a sinner dies so he without sin , died for us and that fulfilled the law the gospel is Gods lovong eternal word from the beginning the same word , Moses law was born from sin and is different because of it and was only temporary until Christ came

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;

and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭

The law is ordained of this angel

“Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:21‬ ‭

that makes it different from the gospel Christ will pardon anyone who turns to him in repentance
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,829
1,234
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#24
Maybe this is naive, but don't we have to trust Paul's letters in what he says about being an apostle? Acts makes clear that Paul is a trusted and powerful authority on God, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the gospel, right? And Acts was written by Luke, who wrote the gospel of the same name right? So if we reject Pauls writing, don't we also reject Luke the writer's testimony about him and his character? And if we do that don't we also call the rest of his writings, including the gospel itself, into doubt?

That is correct. Those that oppose Paul are really anti-Christ.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
11,984
4,877
113
#25
That is correct. Those that oppose Paul are really anti-Christ.
Maybe this is naive, but don't we have to trust Paul's letters in what he says about being an apostle? Acts makes clear that Paul is a trusted and powerful authority on God, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the gospel, right? And Acts was written by Luke, who wrote the gospel of the same name right? So if we reject Pauls writing, don't we also reject Luke the writer's testimony about him and his character? And if we do that don't we also call the rest of his writings, including the gospel itself, into doubt?
shouldn’t they actually reconcile ?

honestly consider what Peter wrote about Paul’s letters specifically before you make him the foundation of Christianity

“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:15-18‬ ‭

Paul should certainly be accepted , but so should Peter , but I think I may be mistaken but I hope no one thinks Paul is the foundation of Christianity or head of the church . And certainly not that Paul’s epistles somehow replace the four gospels as doctrine that’s not at all a good path to follow

Paul is wonderful and should be fully accepted , but with the warning Peter left because it’s very easy to misunderstand what Paul’s saying

this In chapter 2
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8‬ ‭

a lot of people will reject everything but that but it doesn’t conflict or eliminate this in chapter 5 of the same letter to the same church

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and nothing about grace changes of conflicts with this

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul should be fully accepted with the gospel of we reject the gospel first paul
Has nothing to say of substance
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,357
652
113
#26
The wording is specific in the account given in Galatians.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

After his conversion (and after seeing Ananias) he immediately went to Arabia (Mt. Sinai is in Arabia). Then he returned to Damascus. After spending 3 years in Damascus, Paul went to see Peter in Jerusalem.

What we don’t know is how long he was in Arabia. I believe he went to Mt. Sinai in Arabia for forty days to receive the doctrine for the NT church as Moses spent forty days receiving the OT law for the nation of Israel.
The time element is only specified for the total time spent between his conversion and going to Jerusalem. Trying to figure where in Arabia he went and how long he actually spent there or in Damascus is purely speculation. You may conjecture he spent time at Mt. Sinai, just as others may conjecture as to the time spent in Arabia. If it was important I think it would have been made clear to us.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,597
3,526
113
#27
The time element is only specified for the total time spent between his conversion and going to Jerusalem. Trying to figure where in Arabia he went and how long he actually spent there or in Damascus is purely speculation. You may conjecture he spent time at Mt. Sinai, just as others may conjecture as to the time spent in Arabia. If it was important I think it would have been made clear to us.
Comparing scripture to scripture, Mt. Sinai is in Arabia. It is the same place God has met with several men to give instructions.

17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

I returned again unto Damascus...then after three years...I believe it’s clear Paul spent three years in Damascus after returning from Arabia.

Thanks for responding. Look at it as two brothers reading and studying the word.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,424
113
#28
“God chose Paul as a man that knew scripture so thoroughly. The Lord didn't change anything with Christ, all was fulfilled in Christ. “

“The Lord didn't change anything with Christ,”

the beginning

“And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:23-24‬ ‭

the law of Moses which came more than 1500 years after this because man had become sinful and had hard hearts

note the change from the beginning to Moses word about the matter because now it’s being said to sinners with hard hearts

“When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭24:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

now again note the change back to the truth that was before the law ever came if you are open this is pretty clear

If you can acknowledge this is a different commandment then we are agreed

“The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives:

but from the beginning it was not so.

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19:3-9‬ ‭

he even explains that it’s different because thier hearts were hard from sin . it changes in the beginning , then came the law , and then changed back in the gospel . You know how your talking about the temple and priesthood change ? The law changes too

“For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we need what Christ taught what Moses taught contradicts the gospel at nearly every point

one says “ eye for an eye tooth for tooth , the other says “ turn the other cheek forgive the transgression “

when Jesus died for us that’s the fulfillment of the law when a sinner dies so he without sin , died for us and that fulfilled the law the gospel is Gods lovong eternal word from the beginning the same word , Moses law was born from sin and is different because of it and was only temporary until Christ came

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;

and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭

The law is ordained of this angel

“Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:21‬ ‭

that makes it different from the gospel Christ will pardon anyone who turns to him in repentance
Do you think these "changes" you present means that God changed His ways, or that the changes were of how God dealt with humans?

Even the change God made in how God communicates with us from the old covenant when God communicated in stone and physical symbolic commands and changed to communicating with us through the Holy Spirit and in our hearts was a change in communication but it did not change the spirit of God. God IS eternal.
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
2,944
1,383
113
Midwest
#29
Paul should certainly be accepted , but so should Peter ...
Precious friend, this is one of the reasons for all of the Confusion, men
teaching Peter AND Paul "preached THE SAME thing," along with The
Further Confusion
over water baptism! We cannot have it BOTH ways,
since Paul and Peter DID NOT "preach the Same things!" Be Blessed!:

(1a) Salvation to the Jews = Peter "preached" BAD News:

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man
approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which
God did by Him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and fore-
knowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have
crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of
death: because it was not possible that He should be holden of it.
+
Good News:
Act 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, AND be baptized every one
of you in The Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall
receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
{see #'s 4, 9, & 10 in 12 baptisms!}

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2 : 15!) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

(1b) Salvation to the Gentiles = Paul "preached" and IS STILL for TODAY!:
Bad News:
Rom 3:10 "ALL have sinned, and come short of The Glory Of God!"

+
GOOD News:
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also
received, how that Christ
Died for our sins according to the Scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day
according to the Scriptures:

+
Eph 2:8 For By GRACE Are ye Saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is The Gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
{{{{{{{{{{{ NO water baptism! ONLY ONE Baptism for Today!}

Things that are Different are NOT the same, correct?

More Rightly Divided "study" here:
God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels

Be Blessed!
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
2,944
1,383
113
Midwest
#30
...but I think I may be mistaken but I hope no one thinks Paul is the foundation of Christianity or head of the church . And certainly not that Paul’s epistles somehow replace the four gospels as doctrine that’s not at all a good path to follow
Precious friend:

(1) Christ, The Risen And Glorified HEAD Of The Church, Which Is
HIS BODY, Is The "Chief Cornerstone" of God's Building, in Which
"Paul laid The Foundation"
For Christianity, In Light Of!:

"The Day" = The JUDGMENT Seat Of CHRIST!:

"Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every
man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry,
ye are God's building. According The GRACE Of God Which Is Given
unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid The Foundation, and
another buildeth Thereon.


But let every man take heed how he buildeth Thereupon. For other
foundation can no man lay than That is laid, Which Is JESUS CHRIST.
Now if any man build upon This Foundation gold, silver, precious
stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for The {Judgment?} Day
Shall Declare
it, because it Shall Be Revealed by fire; and the fire
shall Try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall
receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall
suffer loss: but he himself SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire."
(1 Corinthians 3 : 8-15 KJB!)

(2) Yes, Romans Through Philemon (KJB!) =

God's GRACE/PEACE Love Letters Directly TO us Today, For:
Consolation, Comfort, Edification, Enjoyment, Encouragement,
And spiritual Building Up Of All The
BLOOD-Washed "members
( saints!" ) In The Body Of CHRIST!, HIS Church, Seated In Heaven!
Amen? {Please start reading/studying here, But always remember:

"ALL Scripture {Including What Is NOT Directly TO us} is Still Very
Profitable for
our learning!" (2 Tim 3 : 16 cp 1 Cor 10 : 11 KJB!)}

(3) The ONLY "Correct Path" to follow Today, Since CHRIST, The Head,
"Revealed To Paul, In HIS Mystery Of PURE GRACE," These Inspired
Words Of Holy Scripture!:


Eph_5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

1Co_4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
1Co_11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of CHRIST.
------------------------------------------------

Conclusion: Follow which path?:

"Prophecy/Law" {earthly} Christ And The TWELVE,
gospel of the kingdom, ISRAEL {past/future}

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2 : 15!) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

"Mystery/GRACE!" {Heavenly!} Gospel Of GRACE, Jew And Gentile
"Equal!" {Current, Today!} for The Body Of CHRIST!


CHRIST, And ONE “apostle TO THE GENTILES, our Pattern to follow!”
(Romans 11 : 13; 1 Timothy 1 : 16 KJB!)


Be Blessed!
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
11,984
4,877
113
#31
Do you think these "changes" you present means that God changed His ways, or that the changes were of how God dealt with humans?

Even the change God made in how God communicates with us from the old covenant when God communicated in stone and physical symbolic commands and changed to communicating with us through the Holy Spirit and in our hearts was a change in communication but it did not change the spirit of God. God IS eternal.
brother what I think is that humans changed somGod provided them a law when they were sinful inside with no Holy Spirit to redeem thier heart inside .

and I believe the New Testament doctrine is what is meant to create us in the image of God like in the beginning . It isn’t a law to keep over sinners without the spirit but the gospel is what teaches us to let go of sin and begin to see the path of light and life in his kingdom and start to follow after the lord Jesus and his preaching

I think when man became sinners then God established the law for sinful dying man to live under until Jesus came with salvation

but there’s a witness in prophecy that tells us there was something new and different coming when the old was fulfilled

Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Thus saith God the Lord, he that created ( John 1:1-5) the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭42:1, 4-10‬ ‭

this recurs a lot in Isaiah and all the prophets there was always in the law of Moses and prophets a witness of God sending this servant , who would be his son and be given all creation into his hands ( psalm 2) his words would have the authority over Moses words ( Deuteronomy 18:15-19,acts 3:22-26) he would die for sins of the people as an atonement and make many righteous by his knowledge ( Isaiah 53) ( the Passover figure , the day of atonement figure , the Leviticus priesthood figure . The promises made to Abraham from genesis 12 -22 , the figure of Isaac being offered and figure of Abraham receiving Christ in isaacs salvstion that day (Hebrews 11:17-19)

but what I mean is brother God was always telling israel something else was going to come with the messiah , because the wrath they caused breaking his covenant had spread across the earth he made a new covenant with better words and promises and power to save our souls not condemn them

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬


I think when we come to Christ we have to get baptized and die to the Old Testament law because we’re meant to be born again as a child of God that’s free like the beginning because our minds and hearts are transformed by Christs doctrine like this moses didn’t teach this stuff but if we were in Eden and had no sin we would have heard it I bet ( just my own thought )



“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to hear Christ will never lead us into sin so we don’t need the law meant for lawless sinners is the idea we need to be re created by the gospel and belief because by the law we’re all condemned already without hope
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
11,984
4,877
113
#32
Do you think these "changes" you present means that God changed His ways, or that the changes were of how God dealt with humans?

Even the change God made in how God communicates with us from the old covenant when God communicated in stone and physical symbolic commands and changed to communicating with us through the Holy Spirit and in our hearts was a change in communication but it did not change the spirit of God. God IS eternal.
yes no I am not saying Gods spirit changed , I’m saying man changed and became this when we followed satans lie rather than the truth of Gods word in the beginning we were this

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion.....

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good...
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:27-28, 31‬ ‭

but then satan came and we listened to his doctrine about the fruit and this happened we were blessed and taken into Eden by God made in his right and good image but then

“And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground ( mans flesh is made of the earth )for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

...till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

....Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:17, 19, 23

And then eventually mans multiplication on the earth became this from a good pleasing creation man out in charge in earth but now our creator was grieved by his creation

“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this people needs a law that commands them to restrain thier nature of sin but they can’t be holt no matter what they do they have this heart

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭

God preserved mans life by the law but only for a time while we were without the spirit the spirit and receiving it changes everything so those hearts. Or have salvation and so what saves man and changes us is this going into those hearts

“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭

the gospel is a discerner of our heart a corrector of our actions not a restraint but it’s able to change the core issues

Jesus teaches speaking to the believing heart about “committing adultery of the heart “, about hating someone in our hearts , about serving greed and material desires that invade our hearts , Christ is about purifying our belief because of we have right hearts and belief our actions are no more than fruit being born from a tree that’s healthy

Christians are looking to be born in Jesus doctrine and his beliefs
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#33
Precious friend, this is one of the reasons for all of the Confusion, men
teaching Peter AND Paul "preached THE SAME thing," along with The
Further Confusion
over water baptism! We cannot have it BOTH ways,
since Paul and Peter DID NOT "preach the Same things!" Be Blessed!:

(1a) Salvation to the Jews = Peter "preached" BAD News:

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man
approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which
God did by Him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and fore-
knowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have
crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of
death: because it was not possible that He should be holden of it.
+
Good News:
Act 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, AND be baptized every one
of you in The Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall
receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
{see #'s 4, 9, & 10 in 12 baptisms!}

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2 : 15!) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

(1b) Salvation to the Gentiles = Paul "preached" and IS STILL for TODAY!:
Bad News:
Rom 3:10 "ALL have sinned, and come short of The Glory Of God!"

+
GOOD News:
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also
received, how that Christ
Died for our sins according to the Scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day
according to the Scriptures:

+
Eph 2:8 For By GRACE Are ye Saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is The Gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
{{{{{{{{{{{ NO water baptism! ONLY ONE Baptism for Today!}

Things that are Different are NOT the same, correct?

More Rightly Divided "study" here:
God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels

Be Blessed!
yep I knew already where you were coming from the new age grace doctrine.
It’s foolishness to part from the one gospel God gave for salvation and suppose one of his servants Paul , who was an appointed witness of the gospel of the kingdom as the other 11.

I already think it’s a waste of time because of the source of your doctrine but here’s what the holy spirit immediately began to give revelation to the church well before Paul was converted to Christianity.

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:



...But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; ( Joel 2)



...And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. “

(then peters again shows revelation established in ot prophecy )

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: ( psalm 16)



Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”

‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:14, 16, 21-25, 29-33‬ ‭KJV‬

all of that is revelation coming tomoerer from the holy spirit. There’s only the one gospel just as Paul Peter is preaching out Jesus death and resurrection , his ascension into heaven to the throne at Gods right hand , his sending forth of the Holy Ghost into the earth now at pentocost

it’s revelation coming from scripture they knew as Jews but hadn’t understood lacking the revelation of Jesus Christ Now Paul had his eyes opened on the rod so he could understand scriptures like Peter there and like these men here

This is a perfect general summary of Paul and peters doctrine and this is how Paul received and learned what he knew

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.

And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”

‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44-49‬ ‭KJV‬


I think you are missing a lot the holt spirit coming tomoeter gave him understanding of the scriptures d he had known and heard the gospel now he had revelation by the spirit and began teaching things no one had heard before Jesus began teaching them .

Paul’s doctrine came the same way Jesus met him on the road to Damascus and showed Saul the Pharisee he was blind then he restored his sight s Paul could understand

it’s no different for Paul and Peter for gentile and Jew it’s the same doctrine the life and ministry of Christ , his death resurrection and ascension to heavens throne d giving of the holt ghost

Paul was a Roman citizen me Jewish Pharisee so he was better educated and able to express the revelations in letters but his letters aren’t what established anyone’s faith he was sending those from prison or on the road to help correct them in things he had heard and encourage them ect everyone he wrote to had believed Gods word that was spread into the world Paul didn’t wrote letters and then people were saved that’s silly train of thought

but I know what that doctrine explains and it’s a doosey Do you read a lot of Paul Ellis ? Joseph prince ?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#34
the law of Moses which came more than 1500 years after this because man had become sinful and had hard hearts .
The law of Moses, giving laws in stone, did not change the spirit of the law. In fact the law as it was given in the new covenant did not change the spirit of the law. It was the same law, just first given in hard and fast rules that could be followed and at the same time they were followed, it could break the spirit of the law. As an example: you could not work on the Sabbath, that law didn't change, but use this law in stone not to work and break the law to love others as yourself. The law in our hearts improved the law in stone.

Both the tree of knowledge and the tree of life (sin and Christ) were planted in the garden of Eden and all in that garden was good. Adam and Eve were not to partake of the tree of knowledge, but to live entirely with the good but they disobeyed. Their disobedience had nothing to do with God's creation of the tree of knowledge.

Nothing of God changes ever, from Genesis to Revelation, not if we look for the spirit of God in all scripture. Jesus is scripture. Paul is scripture. Scripture agrees with scripture.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#35
brother what I think is that humans changed somGod provided them a law when they were sinful inside with no Holy Spirit to redeem thier heart inside .

and I believe the New Testament doctrine is what is meant to create us in the image of God like in the beginning . It isn’t a law to keep over sinners without the spirit but the gospel is what teaches us to let go of sin and begin to see the path of light and life in his kingdom and start to follow after the lord Jesus and his preaching

I think when man became sinners then God established the law for sinful dying man to live under until Jesus came with salvation

but there’s a witness in prophecy that tells us there was something new and different coming when the old was fulfilled

Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Thus saith God the Lord, he that created ( John 1:1-5) the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭42:1, 4-10‬ ‭

this recurs a lot in Isaiah and all the prophets there was always in the law of Moses and prophets a witness of God sending this servant , who would be his son and be given all creation into his hands ( psalm 2) his words would have the authority over Moses words ( Deuteronomy 18:15-19,acts 3:22-26) he would die for sins of the people as an atonement and make many righteous by his knowledge ( Isaiah 53) ( the Passover figure , the day of atonement figure , the Leviticus priesthood figure . The promises made to Abraham from genesis 12 -22 , the figure of Isaac being offered and figure of Abraham receiving Christ in isaacs salvstion that day (Hebrews 11:17-19)

but what I mean is brother God was always telling israel something else was going to come with the messiah , because the wrath they caused breaking his covenant had spread across the earth he made a new covenant with better words and promises and power to save our souls not condemn them

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬


I think when we come to Christ we have to get baptized and die to the Old Testament law because we’re meant to be born again as a child of God that’s free like the beginning because our minds and hearts are transformed by Christs doctrine like this moses didn’t teach this stuff but if we were in Eden and had no sin we would have heard it I bet ( just my own thought )



“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to hear Christ will never lead us into sin so we don’t need the law meant for lawless sinners is the idea we need to be re created by the gospel and belief because by the law we’re all condemned already without hope
Please, please don't shout with print. You can emphasize with underline, or bold but please don't shout.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
4,876
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#36
Maybe this is naive, but don't we have to trust Paul's letters in what he says about being an apostle? Acts makes clear that Paul is a trusted and powerful authority on God, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the gospel, right? And Acts was written by Luke, who wrote the gospel of the same name right? So if we reject Pauls writing, don't we also reject Luke the writer's testimony about him and his character? And if we do that don't we also call the rest of his writings, including the gospel itself, into doubt?
A disciple is simply one who is taught by someone. An apostle is one who is sent out. Paul obviously was both. No one can be a true apostle unless they first have learned from the Lord Jesus. Paul was not an "instant" apostle. He was an instant disciple. He did not know the Lord Jesus as a Man here on the earth. However, he knew the risen Lord Jesus and that is far better. The original disciples/apostles knew Jesus in both respects.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#37
shouldn’t they actually reconcile ?

honestly consider what Peter wrote about Paul’s letters specifically before you make him the foundation of Christianity

“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:15-18‬ ‭

Paul should certainly be accepted , but so should Peter , but I think I may be mistaken but I hope no one thinks Paul is the foundation of Christianity or head of the church . And certainly not that Paul’s epistles somehow replace the four gospels as doctrine that’s not at all a good path to follow

Paul is wonderful and should be fully accepted , but with the warning Peter left because it’s very easy to misunderstand what Paul’s saying

this In chapter 2
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8‬ ‭

a lot of people will reject everything but that but it doesn’t conflict or eliminate this in chapter 5 of the same letter to the same church

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and nothing about grace changes of conflicts with this

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul should be fully accepted with the gospel of we reject the gospel first paul
Has nothing to say of substance
Its funny that everyone who brings up the "warning" of Peter doesn't fully read it. Or maybe they do the same thing as they do with the rest of the scriptures and choose which ones they like and which ones they don't.

2 Peter 3:17-18
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


The SOLUTION to being led away with the error of the wicked is to Grow in Grace. How can someone who opposes Grace possibly teach ANYTHING about the "warning" of Peter?

They can't. They show that they themselves have been led away... Thats what opposition to Grace is. Being led away.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Maybe Grace is more important than you are thinking it is? And maybe law is less important than you think it is.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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#38
We only hear from the four evangelists, one of which is not an apostle, rather a doctor.................There are severl of your zeros within the Twelve, but I CAN SAY WITH ALL FAITH AND CONFIDENCE IN Jesus-Yeshua thaqt all Twelve did spread the Gospel to the then known world.
Took me a while to respond, the first time I read this I think I missed your main point, and a good point it was. You're right, God uses the weak to shame the strong and just because Paul did what he did doesn't "earn" him any title. Very good point, I mean all these guys were men just like us, wicked to the bone outside of our Creator and King, Jesus-Yeshua. :D(y)
I don't disagree at all, we are given, blessed, we do not slave away earning, without a doubt. Yet I still believe in what I mentioned, and with the preference that this is just something the Spirit's put on my heart , not at all worth a battle with a brother at all. (not at all implying we have one here in any way)
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,228
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#39
What battle? I responded according to what has been given me to understand from the Word.
Because men new their own weakness during the OT times whhenever there was a serious deciision to be chosen by choices, lots were drawn and the reult was left up to Yahweh. It was a matter of faith. Joshua did this and several others...
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
11,984
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#40
Its funny that everyone who brings up the "warning" of Peter doesn't fully read it. Or maybe they do the same thing as they do with the rest of the scriptures and choose which ones they like and which ones they don't.

2 Peter 3:17-18
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


The SOLUTION to being led away with the error of the wicked is to Grow in Grace. How can someone who opposes Grace possibly teach ANYTHING about the "warning" of Peter?

They can't. They show that they themselves have been led away... Thats what opposition to Grace is. Being led away.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Maybe Grace is more important than you are thinking it is? And maybe law is less important than you think it is.
grow in grace and the knowledge of Jesus Christ

I have no issue with the grace of God I have an issue when the term grace erases Gods word. There are two kinds of grace mentioned in the New Testament one kind comes from distortion of Paul’s doctrine .

Peter is t the only one who warned of Paul’s letters Paul also did. Peters warning is there for a good reason people were doing this with Paul’s letters because of thier legth and complex explainations of things

there’s this type of grace in scripture which removes the teaching bout repentance

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jude here is addressing the same issue Peter is it’s very easy to do this with Paul’s letters

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I can find several verses that construct an illusion from Paul’s letters if I carefully remove everything he taught about repentance , eternal jidgement , losing our inheritance by continuing to serve sin , ect I can eliminate all that d wuote ten verses like above there let’s ways this one

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:23‬ ‭

I can find twenty like that d construct an illusion that that explains everything . Then I can define grace as unwarranted favor and even wrote a book about how God is so gracious that he doesn’t save us according to what he said but instead by “grace “

then there’s Gods actual grace foind in the knowledge of Christ ( the gospel we’re supposed to grow in not a contrived and distorted term grace

this grace I’m all for its found in the preaching and teachings of Jesus Christ

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s not grace when you remove the doctrine is my point creating our own grave doctrine from plucked and shaped scripture is false doctrine accepting the gospel is Gods grace That saves

peters warning is important we aren’t meant to disregard the gospel and believe in Paul. People do that because they can find a path to hang on to sin with that type of grace it’s a license to not bother repenting and learning from the lord where grace actually exists

Paul’s letters were an issue because people were substituting his letters for the gospel which is the doctrine of God Paul testified of its truth

Paul had concerns about distortions of his doctrine also he talks often abo it those distorting his letters and using them to promote sinful lifestyles claiming as much as they sinned grave would grow larger and cover thier sins

the Old Testament prophets did the same thing they began preaching mans grace and disregarding Gods warnings

“And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err. I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord. They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭23:13-14, 16-17‬ ‭

peters point about Paul’s letters is there in that lesson

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul’s letters are great but the fact is they are specifically pointed to as difficult to understand and made a specific warning about being careful th them grace doesn’t mean Gods word is. I longer applicable