Was Simon the Sorcerer saved?

[mailmandan]

For clarification, I do not state that salvation is by water baptism.

Sure you do. According to your doctrine, no water baptism, no salvation.

What I do share, is that water baptism is a necessary part of the NT spiritual rebirth, along with the need to be filled with the Holy Ghost. (Rom. 8:9)

A distinction without a difference. Water baptism is the central theme in the gospel according to Wansvic.

Peter's initial presentation of the gospel of the Lord Jesus to the Jews, and afterward presented to all, included these commands relative to the spiritual rebirth whether people wish to accept it or not. (Acts 2:36-42, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16) Obedience to water baptism does not automatically provide the infilling of the Holy Ghost. The experiences are independent of one another as witnessed from scripture.

You ignore multiple passages of scripture (John 3:15,16,18; 7:37-39; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17-18; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..) in order to accommodate your pet doctrine of regeneration by water baptism through a handful of verses taken out of context and misinterpreted.

 

[Wansvic]

How did John see the kingdom of God if John can only see the kingdom of God by being born of the Spirit?

What we see recorded in the Gospels is what eyewitnesses came to understand from the progression of events providing revelation relative to the kingdom of God.

 

[Wansvic]

Proven or demonstrated yes, but not established. We are saved by faith/believing in Jesus Christ at it's origin and not at some time later, after we accomplish multiple acts of obedience/works.

The new birth precedes water baptism and is signified, but not procured in the waters of baptism.

Believe AND obey the gospel? We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. *Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” You turn "obey" the gospel into "salvation by works" after we believe the gospel.

According to your eisegesis, but not actually.

Sure it is and it makes perfect sense.

More eisegesis. In the account in Acts 19, they had not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit and were not yet believers, which explains why they have not received the Holy Spirit. They did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed and still needed a gospel presentation from Paul. The laying on of hands in order for them to receive the Holy Spirit (just as in Acts 8) was the exception and not the rule for everyone. People do receive the Holy Spirit upon believing the gospel message (John 3:37-39; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:7-9; Ephesians 1:13). Every Christian that I know (including myself) has received the Holy Spirit the very moment we believed the gospel.

Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him "apart from a additions or modifications" receives forgiveness of sins. Water baptism "followed" believing in Him and receiving the Holy Spirit and salvation. (Acts 10:43-48) So once again, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

The evidence is overwhelming that these Gentles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, magnified God, and were saved and a part of the body of Christ before they were water baptized. Certain Jews may have wanted to forbid them from being baptized because of their unacceptance of the Gentiles, but Peter clearly states that SURELY NO ONE CAN REFUSE. (Acts 10:47) These Gentiles were clearly SAVED BEFORE WATER BAPTISM and the Holy Spirit was proof of this.

Romans 8:9 - But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. If one has received the Holy Spirit they "belong" to Christ. To belong to Christ does not describe the condition of a lost unbeliever but a saved believer - such was the case of these Gentiles before they were water baptized.

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. Because they received the Holy Spirit, these Gentiles abided in God and God abided in them. To abide in God and to have God abide in you does not describe the condition of a lost unbeliever but a saved believer - such was the case of these Gentiles before they were water baptized.

Before they were water baptized, these Gentiles spoke in tongues and magnified God (Acts 10:46). This New Testament gift is for those "in" not "out of" the church, which is Christ's body (Colossians 1:18,24). Therefore, by having this New Testament gift, these Gentiles were already "in" the body of Christ before they were water baptized. We do not receive the gift of tongues, which is only for the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:4-12), without first receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit). We don't receive "a" gift of the Holy Spirit until we first receive "the gift of the Holy Spirit" and these Gentiles clearly received the gift of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.

Repentance unto life (implied in believes in Him in Acts 10:43 - repent/change of mind/new direction of this change of mind/believes in Him) preceded water baptism. Just as we read in Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Believing the gospel message does not ensure that a person has been indwelt by the Holy Ghost/Spirit. The Gentile account is the only reference to such an event; thus that experience is an exception. Clearly, God had a specific purpose for reversing the normal sequence. Also relevant to the point, Jesus said to ask the Father for the Holy Ghost if a person had not yet been indwelt. (Luke 11:13) There can be no doubt that those told to ask for the Holy Ghost were already believers of the Lord Jesus Christ. And, as scripture confirms, a person can know they have been indwelt by the Holy Ghost as the experience is revealed through speaking in tongues. (Acts 2:1-4, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6; 1 Cor. 14:2)

Your other comments avoid the obvious aspects of the scriptures I presented. The NT rebirth consists of being born of water and of Spirit in association with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. (John 3:5) And since the gospel is seen as the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus how is it possible to obey those aspects? See Acts 2:38, the message expresses how. Through repentance a person dies to self and turns to God, are buried with Jesus into His death via water baptism in His name, and receives/pursues the resurrection power of the infilling of the Holy Ghost. (Rom. 6:3-6)

 

[Wansvic]

Sure you do. According to your doctrine, no water baptism, no salvation.

A distinction without a difference. Water baptism is the central theme in the gospel according to Wansvic.

You ignore multiple passages of scripture (John 3:15,16,18; 7:37-39; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17-18; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..) in order to accommodate your pet doctrine of regeneration by water baptism through a handful of verses taken out of context and misinterpreted.

You are entitled to your opinion. However, there is no question that the central theme in the gospel is the Lord Jesus Christ.

And it is because of Jesus' sacrifice that man is afforded the opportunity to believe and obey God's plan of salvation in order to ENTER the kingdom of God. God inspired Luke to record five NT conversion experiences in detail that provide a witness of this truth. The accounts in the Book of Acts establish a precedent for every situation. (Acts 2:36-42, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:14-16)

 

[Wansvic]

Believing the gospel message does not ensure that a person has been indwelt by the Holy Ghost/Spirit. The Gentile account is the only reference to such an event; thus that experience is an exception. Clearly, God had a specific purpose for reversing the normal sequence. Also relevant to the point, Jesus said to ask the Father for the Holy Ghost if a person had not yet been indwelt. (Luke 11:13) There can be no doubt that those told to ask for the Holy Ghost were already believers of the Lord Jesus Christ. And, as scripture confirms, a person can know they have been indwelt by the Holy Ghost as the experience is revealed through speaking in tongues. (Acts 2:1-4, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6; 1 Cor. 14:2)

Your other comments avoid the obvious aspects of the scriptures I presented. The NT rebirth consists of being born of water and of Spirit in association with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. (John 3:5) And since the gospel is seen as the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus how is it possible to obey those aspects? See Acts 2:38, the message expresses how. Through repentance a person dies to self and turns to God, are buried with Jesus into His death via water baptism in His name, and receives/pursues the resurrection power of the infilling of the Holy Ghost. (Rom. 6:3-6)

@mailmandan
Correction to my previous comment that only the Gentiles received the Holy Ghost prior to being commanded to be baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus:

At Pentecost a new command concerning water baptism was presented. Peter stated that EVERYONE was to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sin in connection with Jesus' sacrifice. The implication is that those water baptized by John had to be rebaptized in water in the name of Jesus. Jesus prophesied this message would go forth into all nations BEGINNING in Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47) This principle is confirmed by Paul when he rebaptized the Ephesus disciples in water in the name of Jesus even though they had previously submitted to John's water baptism. (Acts 19:3-5)

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Many believe that Simon the Sorcerer was actually a believer, others say he was not, and still others say he was saved but then lost his salvation. If we interpret scripture correctly, one CANNOT lose their salvation. The book of Ephesians teaches that once someone accepts and believes in the Truth of Jesus Christ, then that person's salvation is "sealed". Concerning Simon the Sorcerer, there is really not a lot to go on. The Bible doesn't say too much about this man. Church leaders such as Justin Martyr describe Simon as having heretical views, claiming that he is known in history as Simon Magus, "Magus" being a term which means sorcerer or magician. In our history books we learn that Simon the Sorcerer had followers called "Simonians" which held certain gnostic beliefs. This also led to the belief that he was one of the originators of Gnosticism. Philip Schaff, author of History of the Christian church, believes Simon was in constant opposition to the Apostle Peter. But not all church leaders have such a bad opinion of Simon. Some have suggested that Scripture points to him having the same saving faith as the rest of the people being baptized in the book of Acts.

Acts 8:13
"Then Simon himself believed also: And when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done." It would seem in this passage that Simon received the same saving faith as the people in verse 12 did. Would it not be arbitrary to deny Luke's affirmation of Simon's salvation while accepting his affirmation of the other's?

Acts 8:17-23
Peter and John laid their hands on the people so that they received the Holy Spirit. Simon was amazed at seeing this and asked how he could receive such power. Peter says to him, "Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money." Although Simon had made an outward profession of faith(baptism), his response demonstrates his lack of spiritual life. Every Christian can fall into temptations just as easily as Simon did.

Arguments for Simon's salvation
1. We have to trust and believe that since the author, Luke, who was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, revealed that the Samaritans believed and were baptized and were saved, then we must also have to include Simon.
2. Peter never says that Simon didn't believe nor rejected Christ.
3. Simon responds by asking the Apostles to pray for him, which normally describes a believers response.
Arguments against Simon's salvation
1. Simon practiced sorcery and demonstrated illusions of the mind, which some people would attribute this as a way to discredit God's power.
2. Church leaders take to passages such as Acts 8:21, "heart not being right with God."
3. Simon pleads with Peter to pray for him on his behalf to the Lord. Many take this to mean that if Simon were saved he could have prayed himself and asked God's forgiveness, if he were truly saved.

We should be careful when examining these passages concerning Simon the Sorcerer's salvation. The passages of scripture just doesn't give the reader enough information to make a doctrinal conclusion. But scripture does say that Simon believed. Just because the Bible doesn't mention the Holy Spirit falling upon him, doesn't mean He never did. Simon's NEED in the story many not have been to be saved.......maybe he already was? Maybe it was to repent of specific sins and be forgiven. Grace that saves unbelievers freely will also forgive believers abundantly.

awe don’t get to decide who’s saved or not it’s between him and Jesus we have no real information of the man’s life his deeds and heart God knows every fiber and motivation and deed so he’s the only qualified judge we Christian’s are going to be judged ourselves we can’t be trying to judge someone else innocent or guilty by the lord he will do that when it’s time

“Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭4:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:9-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Simon the sorcerer has to do that just like we all do

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we’re going to receive what we sow in the flesh Simon is just like any sinner we don’t know if he kept to repentance or not it’s between him and Jesus like your salvation .

It wouldn’t matter to God or you if I tried to decide whether you’re saved or not . I have no place or authority to judge your salvation only Jesus does because only he knows every fiber of you and every word and deed and motive of the heart

awe aren’t anyone else’s judge whether they are saved Jesus earned tbat role of judge and one day he will judge all of us

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

just as another Christian can’t decide whether your saved or not we have no place judging Simons salvstion and we aren’t privileged to know his life’s work like God is

We all have to be concerned with our own issues and repentance and deeds because like Simon we also have to answer to the lord formoir life’s work one day

jesus knows of Simon is saved but none of us can know about the salvstion of another person Jesus living in us by his spirit made it personal for each and every believer

One of the things I love about the gospel is it removes any other flawed humans judgement against the believer and shows them in the gospel Gods true judgement of them it leaves us with an understanding of who our judge is and who are judges aren’t

So we can reach this point of maturity

“But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment:

yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judge the me is the Lord.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have a judge and have his judgements in the gospel Simon could have later become a strong Christian or later could have reverted back to sorcery or some other transgressions only God knows and only God can judge anyone

 

[posthuman]

there is no question that the central theme in the gospel is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen, in fact, all of scripture

 

[John146]

Believing the gospel message does not ensure that a person has been indwelt by the Holy Ghost/Spirit. The Gentile account is the only reference to such an event; thus that experience is an exception. Clearly, God had a specific purpose for reversing the normal sequence. Also relevant to the point, Jesus said to ask the Father for the Holy Ghost if a person had not yet been indwelt. (Luke 11:13) There can be no doubt that those told to ask for the Holy Ghost were already believers of the Lord Jesus Christ. And, as scripture confirms, a person can know they have been indwelt by the Holy Ghost as the experience is revealed through speaking in tongues. (Acts 2:1-4, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6; 1 Cor. 14:2)

Your other comments avoid the obvious aspects of the scriptures I presented. The NT rebirth consists of being born of water and of Spirit in association with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. (John 3:5) And since the gospel is seen as the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus how is it possible to obey those aspects? See Acts 2:38, the message expresses how. Through repentance a person dies to self and turns to God, are buried with Jesus into His death via water baptism in His name, and receives/pursues the resurrection power of the infilling of the Holy Ghost. (Rom. 6:3-6)

The book of Acts is not a doctrinal book, rather a historical one as the transition takes place from Jew to Gentile, from Peter to Paul, and from Jerusalem to Antioch.

 

[mailmandan]

Believing the gospel message does not ensure that a person has been indwelt by the Holy Ghost/Spirit. The Gentile account is the only reference to such an event; thus that experience is an exception.

Ephesians 1:13 is crystal clear. The laying on of hands in order to receive the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues after receiving the Holy Spirit are the exceptions in certain cases and not the general rule for all.

Clearly, God had a specific purpose for reversing the normal sequence. Also relevant to the point, Jesus said to ask the Father for the Holy Ghost if a person had not yet been indwelt. (Luke 11:13) There can be no doubt that those told to ask for the Holy Ghost were already believers of the Lord Jesus Christ. And, as scripture confirms, a person can know they have been indwelt by the Holy Ghost as the experience is revealed through speaking in tongues. (Acts 2:1-4, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6; 1 Cor. 14:2)

Are you a Oneness Pentecostal? If so, that would explain much of your error.

https://carm.org/oneness-pentecostal/is-speaking-in-tongues-a-necessary-sign-of-salvation/
https://carm.org/oneness-pentecostal/what-is-oneness-pentecostal-theology/

Your other comments avoid the obvious aspects of the scriptures I presented.

Only according to your eisegesis.

The NT rebirth consists of being born of water and of Spirit in association with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. (John 3:5)

In John 3:5, Jesus said born of water and the Spirit. He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

Also, "water" is used in scripture as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

And since the gospel is seen as the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus how is it possible to obey those aspects?

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

See Acts 2:38, the message expresses how. Through repentance a person dies to self and turns to God, are buried with Jesus into His death via water baptism in His name, and receives/pursues the resurrection power of the infilling of the Holy Ghost. (Rom. 6:3-6)

Spirit baptism is the reality and water baptism is merely the picture of the reality. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out, "a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality."

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/romans-6.html

Being buried with Jesus into His death and raised up to walk in newness of life is SIGNIFIED but not procured in water baptism. Before mentioning baptism in Romans chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that faith, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification. (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1) That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.

Once again, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[mailmandan]

@mailmandan
Correction to my previous comment that only the Gentiles received the Holy Ghost prior to being commanded to be baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus:

At Pentecost a new command concerning water baptism was presented. Peter stated that EVERYONE was to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sin in connection with Jesus' sacrifice. The implication is that those water baptized by John had to be rebaptized in water in the name of Jesus. Jesus prophesied this message would go forth into all nations BEGINNING in Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47) This principle is confirmed by Paul when he rebaptized the Ephesus disciples in water in the name of Jesus even though they had previously submitted to John's water baptism. (Acts 19:3-5)

Oneness Pentecostal eisegesis.

https://carm.org/oneness-pentecostal/must-baptism-be-in-jesus-name-baptize/

 

[mailmandan]

@mailmandan
Peter stated that EVERYONE was to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sin in connection with Jesus' sacrifice...

If water baptism was "also" required for salvation "in addition" to belief/faith in Christ, then God would not have made so many statements in scripture in which he promises salvation/eternal life to those who simply BELIEVE/PLACE FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST FOR SALVATION. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

 

[Wansvic]

The book of Acts is not a doctrinal book, rather a historical one as the transition takes place from Jew to Gentile, from Peter to Paul, and from Jerusalem to Antioch.

Acts is a doctrinal book. The book lays out the foundation truths and principles of the Church that Jesus promised to build as recorded in the Gospel accounts. Following God's established pattern is crucial for all those living in the NT. Consider that the Book of Acts is unfinished; it has no Amen. This is because the building of the Church is still ongoing.

 

[Wansvic]

Ephesians 1:13 is crystal clear. The laying on of hands in order to receive the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues after receiving the Holy Spirit are the exceptions in certain cases and not the general rule for all.

Are you a Oneness Pentecostal? If so, that would explain much of your error.

https://carm.org/oneness-pentecostal/is-speaking-in-tongues-a-necessary-sign-of-salvation/
https://carm.org/oneness-pentecostal/what-is-oneness-pentecostal-theology/

Only according to your eisegesis.

In John 3:5, Jesus said born of water and the Spirit. He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

Also, "water" is used in scripture as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Spirit baptism is the reality and water baptism is merely the picture of the reality. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out, "a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality."

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/romans-6.html

Being buried with Jesus into His death and raised up to walk in newness of life is SIGNIFIED but not procured in water baptism. Before mentioning baptism in Romans chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that faith, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification. (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1) That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.

Once again, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18) *Perfect Harmony*

Acts 2 is a detailed account of Ephesians 1:13 in action. After being presented with the "word of truth the gospel of salvation" the hearers believed Peter's entire message and placing their trust in Jesus obeyed the commands and were sealed/received the Holy Ghost. This is confirmed by all detailed conversion accounts in the biblical record.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," Eph 1:13

As mentioned previously, all elements associated with the NT rebirth are required regardless of the sequence as revealed from scripture.

 

[Wansvic]

...
In John 3:5, Jesus said born of water and the Spirit. He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit....

If, as you believe, Jesus was not referencing water baptism why do the detailed conversion accounts include the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus? And individuals receiving the infilling of the Holy Spirit as well? Clearly a parallel to water and Spirit.

 

[John146]

Acts is a doctrinal book. The book lays out the foundation truths and principles of the Church that Jesus promised to build as recorded in the Gospel accounts. Following God's established pattern is crucial for all those living in the NT. Consider that the Book of Acts is unfinished; it has no Amen. This is because the building of the Church is still ongoing.

According to Acts, how do Gentiles receive the Holy Spirit?

 

[Wansvic]

Oneness Pentecostal eisegesis.

https://carm.org/oneness-pentecostal/must-baptism-be-in-jesus-name-baptize/

Why deflect? Did you know that every detailed water baptism after Jesus' sacrifice was administered in the name of Jesus. Why? As Paul indicated, submitting to baptism is in accordance with the crucifixion of Jesus. (1 Cor. 1:13) And those who obey the command are buried with Jesus by baptism into death. (Romans 6:4)

 

[Wansvic]

If water baptism was "also" required for salvation "in addition" to belief/faith in Christ, then God would not have made so many statements in scripture in which he promises salvation/eternal life to those who simply BELIEVE/PLACE FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST FOR SALVATION. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Believing and placing one's trust in Jesus is what prompts obedience to the commands to repent and be baptized in water in His name. As stated in Hebrews 5:9, Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to those who obey Him. There are those who believe in Jesus who will hear the dreaded words, "I never knew you." After making that comment Jesus went on to provide an answer to their dilemma. They were guilty of building on a faulty foundation. They were without excuse because God provided the foundational pattern for all generations to follow. Obedience toward God's commands in various forms is a consistent theme throughout the bible.

Jesus is the Word. And the Word is revealing; to reject it is to reject Jesus.

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

 

[Wansvic]

If water baptism was "also" required for salvation "in addition" to belief/faith in Christ, then God would not have made so many statements in scripture in which he promises salvation/eternal life to those who simply BELIEVE/PLACE FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST FOR SALVATION. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Some of the scriptures you list do reference baptism. Also, if you will recall the following was shared in a different thread:

Many question why some biblical records are silent concerning the requirements associated with the NT rebirth outlined in Acts 2:35-38. They conclude, wrongly, that silence is evidence that not all are required. God inspired Luke to record five NT conversion experiences in detail. These accounts in the Book of Acts establish a precedent for every situation. As such it was not necessary to mention every detail in all cases. (Lydia, the jailer, eunu-ch, etc.) The same principle is seen in the Gospel accounts regarding Jesus' miracles, etc. There would not be enough room to contain the books that would be written. (John 21:25)

 

[Wansvic]

According to Acts, how do Gentiles receive the Holy Spirit?

The Gentiles received the Holy Spirit as evidenced by their speaking in tongues after Peter told them about Jesus. The experience of being filled with the Holy Spirit is one requirement of the NT rebirth as recorded in Acts 2:2-38. The other is the need to believe and obey the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. In Acts 10:43 Peter tells the group that it is THROUGH THE NAME OF JESUS that those who believe in Him SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS. Peter shared this information prior to the Holy Spirit coming to dwell in them. Notice it is a direct parallel of what Peter told the Jews on the Day of Pentecost; "... be baptized (water) EVERYONE of you in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin.



"To him give all the prophets witness, that THROUGH HIS NAME whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. " Acts 10:43-48

 

[John146]

The Gentiles received the Holy Spirit as evidenced by their speaking in tongues after Peter told them about Jesus. The experience of being filled with the Holy Spirit is one requirement of the NT rebirth as recorded in Acts 2:2-38. The other is the need to believe and obey the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. In Acts 10:43 Peter tells the group that it is THROUGH THE NAME OF JESUS that those who believe in Him SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS. Peter shared this information prior to the Holy Spirit coming to dwell in them. Notice it is a direct parallel of what Peter told the Jews on the Day of Pentecost; "... be baptized (water) EVERYONE of you in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin.



"To him give all the prophets witness, that THROUGH HIS NAME whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. " Acts 10:43-48

They believed and received the Holy Spirit, no water baptism necessary. The tongues were given as a sign to the Jews present that the gospel was going out to Gentiles.