Was the crucifixion that Jesus endured the worst possible suffering a human could experience?

[ewq1938]

Then let me ask you how you understand Romans 5:13-14

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

See below:

How did Isaac of Genesis, for example, end up also becoming sin and dying, even when sin was not imputed unto him, because there was no law given?

He didn't become sin. No one can do that. People die the first death because they are mortal. The above verses speak of a spiritual death not a physical death. Physical death did not stop reigning at Moses, which means when the law came. Only spiritual death stopped reigning because of God providing a way to remove sin through the sin sacrifices of animals and the shedding of their blood. It was not a perfect system but it was enough until Christ came.

 

[Guojing]

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

See below:




He didn't become sin. No one can do that. People die the first death because they are mortal. The above verses speak of a spiritual death not a physical death. Physical death did not stop reigning at Moses, which means when the law came. Only spiritual death stopped reigning because of God providing a way to remove sin through the sin sacrifices of animals and the shedding of their blood. It was not a perfect system but it was enough until Christ came.

Since you prefer to talk about spiritual death, alright let's use that.

How did Isaac die spiritually even though sin was not imputed unto him?

 

[ewq1938]

Since you prefer to talk about spiritual death, alright let's use that.

How did Isaac die spiritually even though sin was not imputed unto him?

It's something that naturally happens to a sinner. Even in a world that has no law, sin will still alter a person even without God imputing anything.

 

[Guojing]

It's something that naturally happens to a sinner. Even in a world that has no law, sin will still alter a person even without God imputing anything.

Genesis 2
15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

There is only one way in which God said Man will die spiritually, according to verse 17.

So you are saying you believe God didn't mean what he said there?

 

[ewq1938]

There is only one way in which God said Man will die spiritually, according to verse 17.

That isn't the only way to be dead spiritually.

 

[Guojing]

That isn't the only way to be dead spiritually.

Why not just take scripture for what it says, instead of trying to add to it?

 

[ewq1938]

Why not just take scripture for what it says, instead of trying to add to it?

I didn't add to it, you did. Never did Genesis say eating of the tree of knowledge is the only way to be spiritually dead yet that's what you errantly presented here.

 

[Guojing]

I didn't add to it, you did. Never did Genesis say eating of the tree of knowledge is the only way to be spiritually dead yet that's what you errantly presented here.

So how else do you think someone in Genesis can be spiritually dead?

 

[ewq1938]

So how else do you think someone in Genesis can be spiritually dead?

I've already covered how a person can be spiritually dead so no need to repeat. Thanks for the exchange but I sense we have come to the end of this road.

 

[Guojing]

I've already covered how a person can be spiritually dead so no need to repeat. Thanks for the exchange but I sense we have come to the end of this road.

You were adding to the Bible when you did that, that was my point.

Alright then, I now understand that the fundamental difference in our views lies in what you stated here

No one becomes sin. We become sinners when we first sin and continue to sin.

Cheers

 

[Funkus]

I think that the enemy works within socially acceptable teachings so i understand the conviction behind the strong opinions expressed even if it looks like two sides of the same coin and splitting hairs superficially
this makes me very sympathetic to traditionalists indeed, despite my inclination to accept everyone and dislike religious quibbling
it's hard to express but i've seen some very wacky stuff that crosses a line i just can't go beyond
surely anyone with experience of the enemy knows that mocking Christ is is simply what he does, so any teaching that even hints in a direction where Christ is mocked, that is - becoming sin literally or going to hell must be very carefully evaluated indeed with all caution. i say this as a warning not based on anything but observation of how the enemy operates, which i have personally witnessed. for sure there are teachers today that cross over that line into very dangerous territory and manifestations of evil of course there are - this is 2021! Anyone with even a tiny bit of research can find blasphemous stuff out there (smoking Christ like a spliff John Crowder) So all i'm saying is watch out and be careful these days and you can't be too careful

 

[CS1]

Romans 10:9 requires one to believe that Christ rose from dead.

read it again

 

[Magenta]

So you do agree that Jesus became sin on the cross.

Alright then, we agree on something at least.

LOL. I plainly disagree but you claim that is me agreeing?

Obviously you have very serious problems in comprehension.

 

[Magenta]

Why not just take scripture for what it says, instead of trying to add to it?

David was the apple of God's eye.

Jesus is two letters of the Greek alphabet.

Jesus is bread.

Jesus is a door.

Jesus is a gate.

Jesus is a lamb.

Jesus is a lion.

Jesus is a vine.

Jesus is a root.

God is a rock.

You are a pot.

Believers are salt.

 

[Lanolin]

Jesus knew he had to be crucified and he didnt WANT to be. but it was his Fathers will. (he was agonising over his death sentence it in the garden, sweating even blood over it)
However you cannot think God the Father really wanted this for His only son, unless He knew was going to raise Him again.

When a loving Father has to sacrifice his own firstborn son, thats a HUGE price to pay. But its the only way. It couldnt be anyone else. God couldnt pay for everyones sins with money! Besides how much would He be required to pay anyway.
It has to be the firstborn just as the offering is the firstborn lamb or the firstfruits.

Its the same as Abraham with Isaac. Somehow he knew that God would provide a lamb.

anyone here a farmer or shepherd. You do what you need to do. The firstborn is the sacrifice.
The only way Pharoah could ever repent or change his heart was when his first born was taken away from him.

anyone here had to sacrifice their own child? Then you might know what it feels like to suffer.

 

[Guojing]

read it again

I just did, are you disagreeing with my point?

 

[Guojing]

LOL. I plainly disagree but you claim that is me agreeing?

Obviously you have very serious problems in comprehension.

You stated

On the cross, our sin was imputed to Christ.

Guess that does not mean Christ became sin to you?

After all, you do believe that, when we were imputed with Christ righteousness, we become righteous correct?

Never mind, you are always deliberately vague in our exchanges. We disagree then.

 

[Guojing]

so any teaching that even hints in a direction where Christ is mocked, that is - becoming sin literally or going to hell must be very carefully evaluated indeed with all caution

Are you righteous now in your spirit?

Do you know how you became righteous?

 

[VickyK]

The choice is between you and Christ, He did it for you so that you don't have to.

Did what for me so I don't have to what?

 

[oyster67]

Did what for me so I don't have to what?

Paid for your sins with His Blood.