Was the crucifixion that Jesus endured the worst possible suffering a human could experience?

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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According to your doctrine, did Jesus become sin at the cross?
My doctrine? I am not sure what you mean by that. Scripture says:

God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf,
so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.


I agree with this from gotquestions:

On the cross, our sin was imputed to Christ. That is how Christ paid our sin debt to God. He had no sin in Himself, but our sin was attributed to Him so, as He suffered, He took the just penalty that our sin deserves. At the same time, through faith, Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us. Now we can stand before God sinless, just as Jesus is sinless. We are not righteous in ourselves; rather, Christ’s righteousness is applied to us (because Jesus never ceased to be holy, blameless, and pure, for He is the same yesterday, today and forever).

So, “God made him . . . to be sin for us” means that Jesus, although sinless, was treated as if He were not. Although He remained holy, He was regarded as guilty of all the sin in the world. Through imputation of our sin to Him, He became our substitute and the recipient of God’s judgment against sin. Having saved those who believe, He is now “our righteousness, holiness and redemption.”

Jesus was not forsaken in quoting Psalm 22. In the final analysis, those who refuse
to accept His shed righteous blood as a covering for their sin will be forsaken.
 

Funkus

Active member
May 20, 2020
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wanting Jesus to become sin beyond what is scriptural is cursing Christ, those who feel inclined to believe this are the ones who put the crown of thorns on his head and who mocked him. there is some very sick doctrine around these days. do i need to be the only one to say it? an idiot like me can see this is wrong, "becoming sin" means to "bear our sins" not literally become sin beyond a certain point, he took this upon himself, he didn't become what he took on. he destroyed it. if he destroyed it, what sense is there to say he has become it? none - only enemy lies. wake up
 

Funkus

Active member
May 20, 2020
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yes but why is this?
i think that Jesus is literally pouring out his teaching right now and it's being undermined at every step
i just wonder how much longer this can go on
nothing seems real any more
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
6,751
1,900
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wanting Jesus to become sin beyond what is scriptural is cursing Christ, those who feel inclined to believe this are the ones who put the crown of thorns on his head and who mocked him. there is some very sick doctrine around these days. do i need to be the only one to say it? an idiot like me can see this is wrong, "becoming sin" means to "bear our sins" not literally become sin beyond a certain point, he took this upon himself, he didn't become what he took on. he destroyed it. if he destroyed it, what sense is there to say he has become it? none - only enemy lies. wake up
This is a very good Biblical point you are making.

Jesus died a Vicarious death.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
7,277
1,352
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My doctrine? I am not sure what you mean by that. Scripture says:

God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf,
so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.


I agree with this from gotquestions:

On the cross, our sin was imputed to Christ. That is how Christ paid our sin debt to God. He had no sin in Himself, but our sin was attributed to Him so, as He suffered, He took the just penalty that our sin deserves. At the same time, through faith, Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us. Now we can stand before God sinless, just as Jesus is sinless. We are not righteous in ourselves; rather, Christ’s righteousness is applied to us (because Jesus never ceased to be holy, blameless, and pure, for He is the same yesterday, today and forever).

So, “God made him . . . to be sin for us” means that Jesus, although sinless, was treated as if He were not. Although He remained holy, He was regarded as guilty of all the sin in the world. Through imputation of our sin to Him, He became our substitute and the recipient of God’s judgment against sin. Having saved those who believe, He is now “our righteousness, holiness and redemption.”

Jesus was not forsaken in quoting Psalm 22. In the final analysis, those who refuse
to accept His shed righteous blood as a covering for their sin will be forsaken.
So you do agree that Jesus became sin on the cross.

Alright then, we agree on something at least.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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Roman 10: 9-10
So you also agree we need to believe that Christ died for our sins on the cross and rose again on the 3rd day, according to 1 Cor 15:1-4.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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So you also agree we need to believe that Christ died for our sins on the cross and rose again on the 3rd day, according to 1 Cor 15:1-4.

So you did not read Romans 10:9-10? and you did not read 1cor 15 correctly either
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
7,277
1,352
113
wanting Jesus to become sin beyond what is scriptural is cursing Christ, those who feel inclined to believe this are the ones who put the crown of thorns on his head and who mocked him. there is some very sick doctrine around these days. do i need to be the only one to say it? an idiot like me can see this is wrong, "becoming sin" means to "bear our sins" not literally become sin beyond a certain point, he took this upon himself, he didn't become what he took on. he destroyed it. if he destroyed it, what sense is there to say he has become it? none - only enemy lies. wake up
Some of us are just reading and understanding 2 Corinthians 5:21 literally.

Christ became sin on the cross, as a noun. He did not become sin on the cross because he did any sin, as a verb.

Because he became sin, we took his perfect righteousness as imputation, some like Derek Prince calls it "the divine exchange". That is how some of us understand what Paul was explaining in Romans 5:12-19.

We were sinners because of Adam's sin
Therefore, we are now righteousness because of Christ's obedience.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
7,277
1,352
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So you did not read Romans 10:9-10? and you did not read 1cor 15 correctly either
Romans 10:9 requires one to believe that Christ rose from dead.
 

ewq1938

Active member
Oct 18, 2018
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Christ became sin on the cross, as a noun.

A sinless God cannot turn into sin, as a noun or as anything.

Clearly becoming sin is short hand for "sin sacrifice".
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
7,277
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A sinless God cannot turn into sin, as a noun or as anything.

Clearly becoming sin is short hand for "sin sacrifice".
I do understand that there are people who love to interpret sin as "sin offering", that is what they also did with the word "sin" that God spoke to Cain in Genesis 4:7.

I am fine actually, they could be correct. It is non-salvific issue anyway, so I will take Paul's advice there (Romans 14:5) on such matters.

For me I prefer to understand the KJV literally instead of trying to substitute other words for it.
 

ewq1938

Active member
Oct 18, 2018
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For me I prefer to understand the KJV literally instead of trying to substitute other words for it.

That will lead to errors like thinking the Trinity can forsake itself or that a sinless God can become literal sin. It's always best to try to understand when something is literal or if it's figurative and also to understand figures of speech or short hand ways of saying things.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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That will lead to errors like thinking the Trinity can forsake itself or that a sinless God can become literal sin. It's always best to try to understand when something is literal or if it's figurative and also to understand figures of speech or short hand ways of saying things.
To me, its a simple understanding Romans 5:12-19.

The first Adam became sin (noun) thru his disobedience (verb), condemning all of us to be sin (noun)

The final Adam became our sin (noun), thru his obedience at the cross (verb), giving all of us the opportunity to take his righteousness (noun) in exchange

So if Christ did not become sin at the cross (noun), we could not become righteous (noun).
 

ewq1938

Active member
Oct 18, 2018
852
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To me, its a simple understanding Romans 5:12-19.

The first Adam became sin (noun) thru his disobedience (verb), condemning all of us to be sin (noun)
No one becomes sin. We become sinners when we first sin and continue to sin.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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No one becomes sin. We become sinners when we first sin and continue to sin.
You have a different understanding of what Paul meant in Romans 5:12-19 then, especially vs 13

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

I am guessing that is also why you cannot understand why Jesus had to become sin at the cross.
 

ewq1938

Active member
Oct 18, 2018
852
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You have a different understanding of what Paul meant in Romans 5:12-19 then, especially vs 13

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

I am guessing that is also why you cannot understand why Jesus had to become sin at the cross.
What I understand is that God cannot become sin. I also understand that The Trinity cannot forsake each other. What I don't understand is why you cannot also understand those things.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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What I understand is that God cannot become sin. I also understand that The Trinity cannot forsake each other. What I don't understand is why you cannot also understand those things.
Then let me ask you how you understand Romans 5:13-14

Between Adam to Moses, there was no further commandment given by God, other than the one given to Adam.

How did Isaac of Genesis, for example, end up also becoming sin and dying, even when sin was not imputed unto him, because there was no law given?