Was there law before Moses?

[Bornfromabove]

Some use the following verses to prove "original sin". They say that there was no law before Moses, but since sin is transgression of the law, and death (which is the result of sin) reigned from Adam to Moses, then that means that all had sinned through Adam.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

I have serious doubts about the idea that law didn't exist before Moses.

Punishment was definitely brought down for sin, so it seems sin was imputed, which implies law.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Was it just simply the law written in mans heart?

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

And then we have this

Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

 

[Laodicea]

The law is a transcript of the character of God. As long as God has been here His law has been here.

 

[CanadaNZ]

Some use the following verses to prove "original sin". They say that there was no law before Moses, but since sin is transgression of the law, and death (which is the result of sin) reigned from Adam to Moses, then that means that all had sinned through Adam.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

I have serious doubts about the idea that law didn't exist before Moses.

Punishment was definitely brought down for sin, so it seems sin was imputed, which implies law.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Was it just simply the law written in mans heart?

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

And then we have this

Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Sin is at its very core a rejection of God in our hearts. It is the denial of His character, authority and control over our lives. The law was more an explanation of what God puts in the pile of sin. The people before the law still had commandments of God, word of God or even heard the voice of God. Look at Job. Or what God tells us in Romans 1:

8 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

[RedTent]

The bible doesn’t tell us of laws given until Moses, but people knew the difference between sin and righteous living. Even though people ate from plants and fruit until after the flood, Abel knew that the Lord designated blood for sacrifice. Cain did not obey and the results were disastrous for him. Blood has always been a symbol of life and of Christ. The bible doesn't say they were told, but the story still points that out.

At first scripture was only oral, but men wondered and talked about God. What they thought was finally written in the Talmud. The Talmud says that they were given seven laws. They base this on Gen 2:15 when God put man in the garden and told them to take care of it. From that scripture they give seven laws that are called the Noahide Laws. They are as follows:
Prohibition of Idolatry
Prohibition of Murder
Prohibition of Theft
Prohibition of Sexual immorality
Prohibition of Blasphemy
Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
Establishment of courts of law

In Gen 9:1 to 16 God talked to Noah after the flood with some instruction when he made a covenant with us that included the rainbow as a sign of that covenant.

Throughout the bible there seems to be one theme: the difference between man deciding for himself how the world is and what rules it is to be run by like Hitler did, or men understanding that God created it and us and we are to listen and obey Him. And throughout the bible it seems to leave no doubt that God speaks to us in many ways if we listen and obey.

 

[cedaffin]

God’s commandments were always with man.
Right and wrong was put in everyone’s heart.
The Lost Book of Peter is not in our cannon but it sure answers all the questions clearly.
www.bookofpeter.com
Peter then began to explain to us, point by point, chapters of the law that started from the beginning of creation to the time at which I (Clement) arrived here.
“God’s friendship is secured by living well, and by obeying His will, which is the law of all that live. I will unfold these things to you again, and again, so the truth becomes firmly written upon your heart.
“God has created us so that all minds are conscious of Him. He rejoices if any one, on hearing the preaching of the truth, does not delay, or hesitate, but immediately, detesting the past, starts to desire things of the future, and is eager to enter the heavenly kingdom.
Niceta answered: “What if my father should die within the year during which you recommend that he should be put off in order to confirm our faith? He will go down to Hell helpless, and so be tormented forever.”
Peter replied: “God judges fairly the hearts of men. If anyone has lived righteously, he shall immediately be saved. He will be examined by Him who knows the secrets of men as to how he has lived, whether according to the rule of the gentiles, obeying their laws. For those who have lived righteously without knowing God, for the sake of God alone and His righteousness, they shall come to eternal rest, and shall be brought into the new heavenly kingdom.

 

[Tombo]

God’s commandments were always with man.
Right and wrong was put in everyone’s heart.
The Lost Book of Peter is not in our cannon but it sure answers all the questions clearly.
www.bookofpeter.com
Peter then began to explain to us, point by point, chapters of the law that started from the beginning of creation to the time at which I (Clement) arrived here.
“God’s friendship is secured by living well, and by obeying His will, which is the law of all that live. I will unfold these things to you again, and again, so the truth becomes firmly written upon your heart.
“God has created us so that all minds are conscious of Him. He rejoices if any one, on hearing the preaching of the truth, does not delay, or hesitate, but immediately, detesting the past, starts to desire things of the future, and is eager to enter the heavenly kingdom.
Niceta answered: “What if my father should die within the year during which you recommend that he should be put off in order to confirm our faith? He will go down to Hell helpless, and so be tormented forever.”
Peter replied: “God judges fairly the hearts of men. If anyone has lived righteously, he shall immediately be saved. He will be examined by Him who knows the secrets of men as to how he has lived, whether according to the rule of the gentiles, obeying their laws. For those who have lived righteously without knowing God, for the sake of God alone and His righteousness, they shall come to eternal rest, and shall be brought into the new heavenly kingdom.

You really need to stop looking to uninspired writings for spiritual truth, it is a dangerous path. God has given us His word, contained in the 66 books that we call the Bible. There are no lost books of the Bible. That book was not written by Peter. Look only to God's word to uphold or defend any biblical position. It is an insult to God to use any books reported to be "lost", as if God couldn't keep His word pure and intact.
God bless.

Tom

 

[IMINJC]

ROMANS 1:18-20
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.


These verses of scripture in Romans seem to tell us of time when God's law was in effect way before the time of Moses.

The writer was pointing out that there were wicked people that were surppressing the "Truth" that they had come to know about the one and only true God. It says that the "Truth" that they knew was made plain to them by God through His "Invisible Qualities." It goes on to say that God's eternal power and devine nature had been clearly seen and understood FROM WHAT HAS BEEN MADE and because of this people were without any excuse.

The NIV uses the word "Invisible Qualities" to describe the fact that God being obviously invisible to man as well as the written Word. This was obviously a time even before writting was accomplished. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to indicate here that man knew God and His Laws by observing nature...or the things that God made. It would explain how the wise men were able to locate the birth place of Jesus by simply observing the stars.

 

[cedaffin]

Peter’s words are the same scripture. The 66 books reinforce his words. What impressed me was the way he ( Clementine Recognitions) clearly answered all my questions.
I have read the Bible KJV for 30+ years and I could never clearly answer questions people would ask me – until now.
People would try but no one could ever explain what “unclean food” was.
Now I know exactly.
Or
Why were we created?
What is our purpose in this life?
What exactly happens when we die?
Why do bad things happen to good people?
Why do some have an easy life, while others suffer?
Who is God?
Who is Christ?
Who is the devil and demons?
Why would a good God create evil?
Why the Eucharist?
Why baptism?
What does “fasting” have to do with anything?

Have a wonderful day

 

[cedaffin]

Adolf Bernhard Christoph Hilgenfeld (June 2, 1823 - January 12, 1907) was a German Protestant theologian. Hilgenfeld says: "There is scarcely a single writing which is of so great importance for the history of Christianity in its first stage, and which has already given such brilliant disclosures at the hands of the most renowned critics in regard to the earliest history of the Christian Church, as the writings ascribed to the Roman Clement, the Recognitions and Homilies."
The Catholics have seven extra books the Protestants did not include.

 

[RedTent]

[

quote=Tombo;684002]You really need to stop looking to uninspired writings for spiritual truth, it is a dangerous path. God has given us His word, contained in the 66 books that we call the Bible. There are no lost books of the Bible. That book was not written by Peter. Look only to God's word to uphold or defend any biblical position. It is an insult to God to use any books reported to be "lost", as if God couldn't keep His word pure and intact.
God bless.

Tom

[/quote]
God is at work in our world, God said that what He created was good. God gave us scripture to test all things against. I don’t think it is right to throw out everything that is written that isn’t in the bible as men decided to accept it without testing it.

 

[prophecyman]

The law is a transcript of the character of God. As long as God has been here His law has been here.

Very good observation, YHVH is the law of the universe! Good job

 

[cfultz3]

God’s commandments were always with man.
Right and wrong was put in everyone’s heart.
The Lost Book of Peter is not in our cannon but it sure answers all the questions clearly.
www.bookofpeter.com
Peter then began to explain to us, point by point, chapters of the law that started from the beginning of creation to the time at which I (Clement) arrived here.
“God’s friendship is secured by living well, and by obeying His will, which is the law of all that live. I will unfold these things to you again, and again, so the truth becomes firmly written upon your heart.
“God has created us so that all minds are conscious of Him. He rejoices if any one, on hearing the preaching of the truth, does not delay, or hesitate, but immediately, detesting the past, starts to desire things of the future, and is eager to enter the heavenly kingdom.
Niceta answered: “What if my father should die within the year during which you recommend that he should be put off in order to confirm our faith? He will go down to Hell helpless, and so be tormented forever.”
Peter replied: “God judges fairly the hearts of men. If anyone has lived righteously, he shall immediately be saved. He will be examined by Him who knows the secrets of men as to how he has lived, whether according to the rule of the gentiles, obeying their laws. For those who have lived righteously without knowing God, for the sake of God alone and His righteousness, they shall come to eternal rest, and shall be brought into the new heavenly kingdom.

If you would compare the language used in the Lost Book of Peter to the ones which are in the Bible, you will notice that the usage of language are from at least two different people.

 

[sllhouette]

Some use the following verses to prove "original sin". They say that there was no law before Moses, but since sin is transgression of the law, and death (which is the result of sin) reigned from Adam to Moses, then that means that all had sinned through Adam.

Law DID exist before Moses. There is something called "natural law" that is things that we know are true because they are expressed by creation. Also, God gave some commands in Genesis.

That said, original sin is such a poorly understood topic, although I think everyone would have to agree that it exists. Original sin is the reason that Adam's fall maters to us and why God alone could redeem us. I think the word "sin" doesn't communicate well what it is. Original Sin is something that is "contracted" and not something that is "committed". So you, when you had done nothing wrong, would still feel the effects of original Sin. It simply means that men are in a "fallen" state and thus have an inclination to evil. Baptism frees us from this by giving us Grace. By Adam's act we lost Grace, By Christ's act we gained it. The state of having lost Grace is original sin. This is why Catholics believe that Mary was born without original sin, because she was "full of Grace" which was thought to only have been possible for Eve (although that is completely sidetracking the conversation ).

I know you wanted to talk about whether there is law before Moses, but I feel that it is so obvious that there was that it hardly needs to be commented upon...

 

[love2love]

Yes there was law before Moses, even for men and women who don't believe God gave Moses the law. Yet, their own conscience bears witness to such truth. In other words knowing right from wrong. When you look at what happen with Adam and Eve. When they ate from the tree of knowledge they immideatly knew they were naked. God gave Moses theses ten certain laws so men wouldnt get so far spiritually disconnected from him, or each other.

 

[Bornfromabove]

Law DID exist before Moses. There is something called "natural law" that is things that we know are true because they are expressed by creation. Also, God gave some commands in Genesis.

That said, original sin is such a poorly understood topic, although I think everyone would have to agree that it exists. Original sin is the reason that Adam's fall maters to us and why God alone could redeem us. I think the word "sin" doesn't communicate well what it is. Original Sin is something that is "contracted" and not something that is "committed". So you, when you had done nothing wrong, would still feel the effects of original Sin. It simply means that men are in a "fallen" state and thus have an inclination to evil. Baptism frees us from this by giving us Grace. By Adam's act we lost Grace, By Christ's act we gained it. The state of having lost Grace is original sin. This is why Catholics believe that Mary was born without original sin, because she was "full of Grace" which was thought to only have been possible for Eve (although that is completely sidetracking the conversation ).

I know you wanted to talk about whether there is law before Moses, but I feel that it is so obvious that there was that it hardly needs to be commented upon...

I guess my understanding of original sin is that people who believe it...pretty much believe we are born sinners, even sinners inside the womb. People who don't believe it think we become sinners in life. I'm not really sure. I don't know if we are born with an inherent inclination to sin or if the demonic influences of this world is so strong that it draws us to sin right from the start. There is no doubt though that we all feel and experience the effect of Adam's sin.

 

[Bornfromabove]

I'm starting to believe we are born sinners. I've been wrestling with these verses the last few minutes.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—Ok, this either means we all sinned "in Adam" or we all ourselves have sinned because we have inherited the inclination to sin from Adam

Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. So, this either means sin was in the world before the law of Moses because they inherited it from Adam and his sin was imputed on them or sin was in the world before the law of Moses because they broke the laws that were written in their hearts.

Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. Since death reigned, that means the punishment of sin was definitely imputed, which means sin was imputed.

So, since we have Jesus's righteousness imputed upon us, it only makes sense that Adams sin was imputed upon us. The moment we are born we are sinners (even infants die) because Adam sin is passed down to us, but the moment we are "born again" Jesus's righteousness is imputed on us. However, the body still dies because it is still of Adam and corrupted, but the spirit is made alive and will put on an incorruptible body.

Frist birth = Adams sin imputed on us

Second birth (born again)= Christ's righteousness imputed on us

 

[Consumed]

You really need to stop looking to uninspired writings for spiritual truth, it is a dangerous path. God has given us His word, contained in the 66 books that we call the Bible. There are no lost books of the Bible. That book was not written by Peter. Look only to God's word to uphold or defend any biblical position. It is an insult to God to use any books reported to be "lost", as if God couldn't keep His word pure and intact.
God bless.

Tom

When Jesus came He faced the same problem, oral tradition and law of moses- talmud hence Jesus keeps saying "it is written", even in duetronomy it says (chptr 24?) if they do as is written, not as told for the truth has a way of being diluted and lost thru oral interpretations given over time.

 

[Skinski7]

I'm starting to believe we are born sinners. I've been wrestling with these verses the last few minutes.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—Ok, this either means we all sinned "in Adam" or we all ourselves have sinned because we have inherited the inclination to sin from Adam

Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. So, this either means sin was in the world before the law of Moses because they inherited it from Adam and his sin was imputed on them or sin was in the world before the law of Moses because they broke the laws that were written in their hearts.

Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. Since death reigned, that means the punishment of sin was definitely imputed, which means sin was imputed.

So, since we have Jesus's righteousness imputed upon us, it only makes sense that Adams sin was imputed upon us. The moment we are born we are sinners (even infants die) because Adam sin is passed down to us, but the moment we are "born again" Jesus's righteousness is imputed on us. However, the body still dies because it is still of Adam and corrupted, but the spirit is made alive and will put on an incorruptible body.

Frist birth = Adams sin imputed on us

Second birth (born again)= Christ's righteousness imputed on us

Physical death was passed down from Adam, not sin. The example of sin is passed down too.

We are born neutral into the world subject to the passions and desires of the flesh. Sin is not a substance of the flesh, that is what the gnostics taught and such a view was refuted by the early church.

Sin is when one yields to the passions and desires of the flesh in rebellion to either a direct commandment of God or in rebellion to the light of conscience which is given by God to all men.

Sin is always a moral choice.

Physical death is due to man being created mortal and being denied access to the tree of life. Spiritual death is due to rebellion against God.

A baby is not born a sinner or righteous. A baby is totally neutral, innocent and ignorant. A baby lives in accordance with the passions and desires of the flesh. A child sins only when they have the understanding develop to know the difference between right and wrong and they willfully choose wrong.

If you read Genesis 3:6 you will see that Eve was drawn away by the lusts of the flesh in the exact same way that James describes in Jam 1:14-15.

Those that are Christ's crucify these lusts and no longer yield to them because they walk in the Spirit. Read Gal 5:24, all of Rom 6 as well as 1Pet chapter 4.

The teaching of original sin was brought into church orthodoxy by Augustine of Hippo in the fourth century. That is a fact and anyone can look it up and research it.

Augustine was schooled in neo-platonism and was also a a Manichaean gnostic for many years. He was unable to root out the dualist philosophy from his mind and thus approached the Bible from a dualist perspective and thus he read original sin into the Bible.

I have almost finished a video which goes through the history of this in detail thoroughly exposing where this demonic doctrine of being born a sinner came from.

The born in sin doctrine is an excuse for continued sin because the blame is removed from the will and put on the nature. It is Satan's masterpiece.


The modern church system is built on the foundation of original sin and this doctrine completely redefines the Gospel message.





Note: There is nowhere in the Bible that says the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to the believer. The Bible says that faith is imputed as righteousness. This imputed righteousness teaching took hold through the reformation and is pure heresy.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Physical death was passed down from Adam, not sin. The example of sin is passed down too.

If this was true, then no one would be born, we would all be born physically dead.

Scripture states we are all dead because of Adam, and have the baility to be made alive thorugh Christ. This is not talking about physical life, but spiritual. thus we must be born spiritually dead through adam.

We are born neutral into the world subject to the passions and desires of the flesh. Sin is not a substance of the flesh, that is what the gnostics taught and such a view was refuted by the early church.

Neutral? Where is that found in Scripture? Early church? what early church the catholic church?

Sin is when one yields to the passions and desires of the flesh in rebellion to either a direct commandment of God or in rebellion to the light of conscience which is given by God to all men.

Sin is always a moral choice.

Amen, whether we are saved or not saved, this is always the case. we agree on something..WOW!

Physical death is due to man being created mortal and being denied access to the tree of life. Spiritual death is due to rebellion against God.

Way off base here. Adam never ate of the tree of life. And he would have lived forever. Physical death us due to the nature of our physical bodies being corrupted by sin Spiritual death is due to our being "in adam" and eventually our own moral sin.

A baby is not born a sinner or righteous. A baby is totally neutral, innocent and ignorant. A baby lives in accordance with the passions and desires of the flesh. A child sins only when they have the understanding develop to know the difference between right and wrong and they willfully choose wrong.

Again agree in part. But a baby is still ":In Adam" thus he is still dead to Christ.

If you read Genesis 3:6 you will see that Eve was drawn away by the lusts of the flesh in the exact same way that James describes in Jam 1:14-15.

Those that are Christ's crucify these lusts and no longer yield to them because they walk in the Spirit. Read Gal 5:24, all of Rom 6 as well as 1Pet chapter 4.

Yes we do LEARN how to do this. But to think we will gain 100 % victory over sin, and not fall to the passions of the flesh, even after saved, is a grave error.

The teaching of original sin was brought into church orthodoxy by Augustine of Hippo in the fourth century. That is a fact and anyone can look it up and research it.

Augustine was schooled in neo-platonism and was also a a Manichaean gnostic for many years. He was unable to root out the dualist philosophy from his mind and thus approached the Bible from a dualist perspective and thus he read original sin into the Bible.

In adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ shall All be MADE ALIVE.

No physical death here, spiritual is in question/ We are not made physically alive through Christ's death, but spiritually alive, thus we all must be made spiritually dead when we are born.

Seems like scripture teaches right/ Stop listening to men, and listen to scripture. men will lead you in error.

I have almost finished a video which goes through the history of this in detail thoroughly exposing where this demonic doctrine of being born a sinner came from.

The born in sin doctrine is an excuse for continued sin because the blame is removed from the will and put on the nature. It is Satan's masterpiece.

Only a licentious person would believe this.. Your fight is against them not us. We do not excuse sin.

The modern church system is built on the foundation of original sin and this doctrine completely redefines the Gospel message

.

Really? Never been to a church like this, that redefines the gospel (good news) of Christ. and our salvation from eternal condemnation based on his son.

I see many preach like the world, and teach salvation is not paid by the blood of Christ. but our good deeds, religious ceremony and sacrament, and any other works we deem God will recieve in payment for our sin.

The penalty of sin is death. Not being baptized or anything else. No other work can remove our penalty, on;y death

Note: There is nowhere in the Bible that says the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to the believer. The Bible says that faith is imputed as righteousness. This imputed righteousness teaching took hold through the reformation and is pure heresy.

Ok, David was wrong when he said blessed is the man to whom God iwll not impute sin/ And Paul was wrong when he stated Gods righteousness is imputed to us based on our faith. not works.

Do you even know what impute means? probably not. Your stuck in religion and religious definitions, and not the true meaning of Gods word.. You make the same mistake the romans did when they went away from a literal interpretation of Gods word, and replaced it with a symbolic, religious interpretation. and destroyed the church.

 

[Bornfromabove]

Physical death was passed down from Adam, not sin. The example of sin is passed down too.

We are born neutral into the world subject to the passions and desires of the flesh. Sin is not a substance of the flesh, that is what the gnostics taught and such a view was refuted by the early church.

Sin is when one yields to the passions and desires of the flesh in rebellion to either a direct commandment of God or in rebellion to the light of conscience which is given by God to all men.

Sin is always a moral choice.

Physical death is due to man being created mortal and being denied access to the tree of life. Spiritual death is due to rebellion against God.

A baby is not born a sinner or righteous. A baby is totally neutral, innocent and ignorant. A baby lives in accordance with the passions and desires of the flesh. A child sins only when they have the understanding develop to know the difference between right and wrong and they willfully choose wrong.

If you read Genesis 3:6 you will see that Eve was drawn away by the lusts of the flesh in the exact same way that James describes in Jam 1:14-15.

Those that are Christ's crucify these lusts and no longer yield to them because they walk in the Spirit. Read Gal 5:24, all of Rom 6 as well as 1Pet chapter 4.

The teaching of original sin was brought into church orthodoxy by Augustine of Hippo in the fourth century. That is a fact and anyone can look it up and research it.

Augustine was schooled in neo-platonism and was also a a Manichaean gnostic for many years. He was unable to root out the dualist philosophy from his mind and thus approached the Bible from a dualist perspective and thus he read original sin into the Bible.

I have almost finished a video which goes through the history of this in detail thoroughly exposing where this demonic doctrine of being born a sinner came from.

The born in sin doctrine is an excuse for continued sin because the blame is removed from the will and put on the nature. It is Satan's masterpiece.


The modern church system is built on the foundation of original sin and this doctrine completely redefines the Gospel message.





Note: There is nowhere in the Bible that says the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to the believer. The Bible says that faith is imputed as righteousness. This imputed righteousness teaching took hold through the reformation and is pure heresy.

Ok, I can buy into the idea that we all die a physical death because we dont have access to the tree of life, even if someone lived a perfect sinless life they would still die a physical death I suppose.

But...it clearly says many were made sinners by Adam, and the flip side would naturally be that many were made righteous by Christ.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.