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L
Paul says "for until the law" which would seem to mean that there was a period before law?
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
B
I think maybe this translation helps me better understand it.
Rom 5:12 Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death resulted from sin, therefore everyone dies, because everyone has sinned.
Rom 5:13 Certainly sin was in the world before the Law was given, but no record of sin is kept when there is no Law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless, death ruled from the time of Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the same way Adam did when he disobeyed. He is a foreshadowing of the one who would come.
I think its saying that before God gave the (Mosaic) law, they still had the written law on their hearts. That is why they didn't sin in the same way as Adam, because Adam disobeyed a direct command from God but they disobeyed their conscience.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible attributes—his eternal power and divine nature—have been understood and observed by what he made, so that people are without excuse.
Rom 2:14 For whenever gentiles, who do not possess the Law, do instinctively what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law.
Rom 2:15 They show that what the Law requires is written in their hearts, a fact to which their own consciences testify, and their thoughts will either accuse or excuse them
Rom 5:12 Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death resulted from sin, therefore everyone dies, because everyone has sinned.
Rom 5:13 Certainly sin was in the world before the Law was given, but no record of sin is kept when there is no Law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless, death ruled from the time of Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the same way Adam did when he disobeyed. He is a foreshadowing of the one who would come.
I think its saying that before God gave the (Mosaic) law, they still had the written law on their hearts. That is why they didn't sin in the same way as Adam, because Adam disobeyed a direct command from God but they disobeyed their conscience.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible attributes—his eternal power and divine nature—have been understood and observed by what he made, so that people are without excuse.
Rom 2:14 For whenever gentiles, who do not possess the Law, do instinctively what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law.
Rom 2:15 They show that what the Law requires is written in their hearts, a fact to which their own consciences testify, and their thoughts will either accuse or excuse them
E
One thing you have to remember about Paul is that he was a theologian and some things he said are hard to understand. If sin was in the world before God gave the Law at Sinai then that means the Law existed before it was given. God was just giving them a Law that already existed for sin is the transgression of the Law.
I am mixed about this.
Yes, God says in romans 1 God wrote the law in our hearts. But as paul said, I did not know what coveting was until the law said, thou shalt not covet.
Mankind knew coveting was wrong. But there was nothing written in stone which said, Thou Shalt not covet" until God gave that law to Moses.
Then of course (and I love how Paul put it) and to put it into perspective, Paul was a pharisee of pharisees, He thought the law is what made him right with God. Which is why he said, The law, which he thought was given to give life. Actually gave death.
Before the written word was given. Man knew what was wrong in their hearts. But it could not be accredited to there account as sin, because there was no law which said it was sin. (thus all men died because of adam even those who did not sin the sin adam sinned) But when the law came, Man was shown their own sin and guilt. because the law which was to give life, gave death.
L
I am mixed about this.
Yes, God says in romans 1 God wrote the law in our hearts. But as paul said, I did not know what coveting was until the law said, thou shalt not covet.
Mankind knew coveting was wrong. But there was nothing written in stone which said, Thou Shalt not covet" until God gave that law to Moses.
Then of course (and I love how Paul put it) and to put it into perspective, Paul was a pharisee of pharisees, He thought the law is what made him right with God. Which is why he said, The law, which he thought was given to give life. Actually gave death.
Before the written word was given. Man knew what was wrong in their hearts. But it could not be accredited to there account as sin, because there was no law which said it was sin. (thus all men died because of adam even those who did not sin the sin adam sinned) But when the law came, Man was shown their own sin and guilt. because the law which was to give life, gave death.
The Pharisees taught that righteousness came by keeping the Law. Acts 15 shows the issue in the early church where some Pharisees in the early church taught salvation by works.
Acts 15:1
(1) And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Paul understood that righteousness does not come by keeping the Law but, by faith in Christ. Abraham was also made righteous by faith. When reading about the Law in Paul's writings we need to tread carefully because he says some things hard to be understood.
2 Peter 3:15-16
(15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
(16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
B
I am mixed about this.
Yes, God says in romans 1 God wrote the law in our hearts. But as paul said, I did not know what coveting was until the law said, thou shalt not covet.
Mankind knew coveting was wrong. But there was nothing written in stone which said, Thou Shalt not covet" until God gave that law to Moses.
Then of course (and I love how Paul put it) and to put it into perspective, Paul was a pharisee of pharisees, He thought the law is what made him right with God. Which is why he said, The law, which he thought was given to give life. Actually gave death.
Before the written word was given. Man knew what was wrong in their hearts. But it could not be accredited to there account as sin, because there was no law which said it was sin. (thus all men died because of adam even those who did not sin the sin adam sinned) But when the law came, Man was shown their own sin and guilt. because the law which was to give life, gave death.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
When you add this last verse ....Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;
So if death "reigned" from Adam to Moses it was because of one mans offense, not because of what they have done
it seems to make it clear that Paul is saying that they didnt die for their sins because their sins were not imputed on them because there was no written law. Its saying they were guilty and under death because of Adams sin.
E
Yeah, I'm still wrestling with it as well.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
When you add this last verse ....Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;
So if death "reigned" from Adam to Moses it was because of one mans offense, not because of what they have done
it seems to make it clear that Paul is saying that they didnt die for their sins because their sins were not imputed on them because there was no written law. Its saying they were guilty and under death because of Adams sin.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
When you add this last verse ....Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;
So if death "reigned" from Adam to Moses it was because of one mans offense, not because of what they have done
it seems to make it clear that Paul is saying that they didnt die for their sins because their sins were not imputed on them because there was no written law. Its saying they were guilty and under death because of Adams sin.
Paul was trying to show them to look away from thr law. For people died before the law. we are all dead to Christ and thus to God. The law was just a tutor to bring us to Christ. because the law should prove to us we are guilty and can not live up to the standard God demands for being his child by our own means (perfection)
Thus he showed, even before the law, men died in Adam, How much more guilty are we, who after the law, still could not make it of our own accord.
We are either in adam (dead) or in Christ (made alive). The law in our hearts shows us how to live the law given moses shows us we need God.
if people would just see this, they would stop trying to earn their way to heaven, and see Gods love and grace for what it is.,
B
But the one thing that keeps throwing me is that saying there was no law before Moses just doesn't seem to be completely true.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Unless by law, God meant he kept the instructions given specifically to him.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Unless by law, God meant he kept the instructions given specifically to him.
L
But the one thing that keeps throwing me is that saying there was no law before Moses just doesn't seem to be completely true.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Unless by law, God meant he kept the instructions given specifically to him.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Unless by law, God meant he kept the instructions given specifically to him.
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
The text does not say there was no Law, because there was sin there was Law. A careful look at Genesis shows people had a knowledge of the Law of God. Abraham kept the commandments of God. We die the first death because of Adam's sin but, we die the second death because of our own. The Law shows God's requirements as Adam & Eve knew God's requirements. Through Christ we can be made righteous and do not need to die the second death.
Romans 5:15-19
(15) But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
(16) And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
(17) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Notice the contrast in these verses which I have highlighted
B
But sin is singular, not plural. So the sin that was in the world before law could have simply been Adams sin that was passed to everyone.
These translations makes it seem there was a period when there was no law.
(ESV) for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
(ISV) Certainly sin was in the world before the Law was given, but no record of sin is kept when there is no Law.
(NIV) for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
(GWT) Sin was in the world before there were any laws. But no record of sin can be kept when there are no laws.
(WNT) For prior to the Law sin was already in the world; only it is not entered in the account against us when no Law exists.
These translations makes it seem there was a period when there was no law.
(ESV) for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
(ISV) Certainly sin was in the world before the Law was given, but no record of sin is kept when there is no Law.
(NIV) for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
(GWT) Sin was in the world before there were any laws. But no record of sin can be kept when there are no laws.
(WNT) For prior to the Law sin was already in the world; only it is not entered in the account against us when no Law exists.
E
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
for until the law. there was a time there was no law)
sin can not be imputed (charged against a mans account) when their is no law
self explanitory. there was a time when there was no law set in stone.
but yes, god did command induviduals. But as in ever court of law. unless the commands are written in stone. they can not be held against a person.
B
simple gramar helps us
for until the law. there was a time there was no law)
sin can not be imputed (charged against a mans account) when their is no law
self explanitory. there was a time when there was no law set in stone.
but yes, god did command induviduals. But as in ever court of law. unless the commands are written in stone. they can not be held against a person.
for until the law. there was a time there was no law)
sin can not be imputed (charged against a mans account) when their is no law
self explanitory. there was a time when there was no law set in stone.
but yes, god did command induviduals. But as in ever court of law. unless the commands are written in stone. they can not be held against a person.
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
And adultery seemed to be wrong
Gen 20:9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.
Gen 20:10 And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou hast done this thing?
Gen 20:11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.
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B
I dont agree with a lot of things Andrew Wommack teaches but here is his commentary on it.
Romans 5:13
Next Verse
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Note 2 at Ro 5:13: Ro 5:13-17 is a parenthetical phrase. In Ro 5:12, Paul began likening imputed righteousness to imputed sin. He interrupted that thought to briefly explain how God dealt with man's sin nature from the time of Adam until the time of the Law of Moses. Therefore, the point that Paul was making can be received by skipping directly from Ro 5:12 to 5:18. However, some very important information is revealed in this parenthetical phrase.
Paul said that until the time the Law was given, sin was not imputed unto people. As explained in note 6 at Ro 4:3, the most-used Greek word for "impute" is "LOGIZOMAI," an accounting term meaning that God was not entering people's sins in the account book. In this instance, a different Greek word was used ("ELLOGEO" - used only one other time in New Testament, Phm 18), but it has virtually the same meaning. This is a radical statement.
Most people have interpreted God's dealings with man after Adam's sin to be immediate rejection and banishment from His presence. In other words, it was an immediate imputing of man's sins. However, Paul was stating just the opposite. God was not holding people's sins against them until the time that the Law of Moses was given.
With this in mind, it should change the way we think about God's dealings with man between the Fall and the giving of the Law. Adam and Eve were not driven from the Garden of Eden because God could not stand them in His presence anymore. God's dealings with Adam and Eve and their children in Ge 4 prove His presence was still with them. The reason He drove them from Eden is clearly stated in Ge 3:22-23; it was to keep them from eating of the Tree of Life and living forever.
Instead of this being a punitive act, it was actually an act of mercy. It would have been terrible for people to live forever in sinful bodies, subject to all the emotions and diseases that sin brings. God had a better plan through Jesus.
In accordance with what Paul was revealing here, God was merciful to the first murderer (Ge 4:9-15), even to the point of placing a mark on his forehead and promising vengeance if anyone tried to kill him. In contrast, once the Law was given, the first man to break the ordinance of the Sabbath was stoned to death for picking up sticks (Nu 15:32-36). That doesn't seem equitable. But the answer is that before the Law, God was not imputing people's sins unto them as He was after the giving of the Law (see note 3 at Ro 5:14).
It would appear that the Flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah were two notable exceptions to this. Actually, these were not exceptions. While these two acts of judgment were punitive on the individuals who received the judgment, they were actually acts of mercy on the human race as a whole. In the same way that a limb or organ will sometimes be sacrificed to save a life, so God had to destroy these sinners to continue His mercy on the human race. The people in Noah's day and the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah were so vile that they were like a cancer that had to be killed.
So, for the first 2,000 years after man's Fall (approximate time between the Fall and the giving of the Law), God was not holding people's sins against them. That was why Abram was not killed for marrying his half sister nor Jacob for marrying his wife's sister (see note 3 at Ro 4:15).
Therefore, we can see that God's immediate reaction to man's sin was mercy and not judgment. It was over 2,000 years before God began to impute people's sins unto them, and according to Ga 3:19 and 23-24, that was only a temporary way of dealing with sin until Jesus could come. Through Jesus, God is once again reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing people's sins unto them (2Co 5:19).
Romans 5:13
Next Verse
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Note 2 at Ro 5:13: Ro 5:13-17 is a parenthetical phrase. In Ro 5:12, Paul began likening imputed righteousness to imputed sin. He interrupted that thought to briefly explain how God dealt with man's sin nature from the time of Adam until the time of the Law of Moses. Therefore, the point that Paul was making can be received by skipping directly from Ro 5:12 to 5:18. However, some very important information is revealed in this parenthetical phrase.
Paul said that until the time the Law was given, sin was not imputed unto people. As explained in note 6 at Ro 4:3, the most-used Greek word for "impute" is "LOGIZOMAI," an accounting term meaning that God was not entering people's sins in the account book. In this instance, a different Greek word was used ("ELLOGEO" - used only one other time in New Testament, Phm 18), but it has virtually the same meaning. This is a radical statement.
Most people have interpreted God's dealings with man after Adam's sin to be immediate rejection and banishment from His presence. In other words, it was an immediate imputing of man's sins. However, Paul was stating just the opposite. God was not holding people's sins against them until the time that the Law of Moses was given.
With this in mind, it should change the way we think about God's dealings with man between the Fall and the giving of the Law. Adam and Eve were not driven from the Garden of Eden because God could not stand them in His presence anymore. God's dealings with Adam and Eve and their children in Ge 4 prove His presence was still with them. The reason He drove them from Eden is clearly stated in Ge 3:22-23; it was to keep them from eating of the Tree of Life and living forever.
Instead of this being a punitive act, it was actually an act of mercy. It would have been terrible for people to live forever in sinful bodies, subject to all the emotions and diseases that sin brings. God had a better plan through Jesus.
In accordance with what Paul was revealing here, God was merciful to the first murderer (Ge 4:9-15), even to the point of placing a mark on his forehead and promising vengeance if anyone tried to kill him. In contrast, once the Law was given, the first man to break the ordinance of the Sabbath was stoned to death for picking up sticks (Nu 15:32-36). That doesn't seem equitable. But the answer is that before the Law, God was not imputing people's sins unto them as He was after the giving of the Law (see note 3 at Ro 5:14).
It would appear that the Flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah were two notable exceptions to this. Actually, these were not exceptions. While these two acts of judgment were punitive on the individuals who received the judgment, they were actually acts of mercy on the human race as a whole. In the same way that a limb or organ will sometimes be sacrificed to save a life, so God had to destroy these sinners to continue His mercy on the human race. The people in Noah's day and the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah were so vile that they were like a cancer that had to be killed.
So, for the first 2,000 years after man's Fall (approximate time between the Fall and the giving of the Law), God was not holding people's sins against them. That was why Abram was not killed for marrying his half sister nor Jacob for marrying his wife's sister (see note 3 at Ro 4:15).
Therefore, we can see that God's immediate reaction to man's sin was mercy and not judgment. It was over 2,000 years before God began to impute people's sins unto them, and according to Ga 3:19 and 23-24, that was only a temporary way of dealing with sin until Jesus could come. Through Jesus, God is once again reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing people's sins unto them (2Co 5:19).
E
What about here though? They had sin and God destroyed them for it.
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
And adultery seemed to be wrong
Gen 20:9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.
Gen 20:10 And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou hast done this thing?
Gen 20:11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
And adultery seemed to be wrong
Gen 20:9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.
Gen 20:10 And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou hast done this thing?
Gen 20:11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.
As paul said, before there was a law, I did not know coveting was coveting, but then the law came, and I died. When it was made official, the commandment killed. Before it was official. the command still stood, it just did not kill.
does this make more sense?
B
Scripture teaches Gods law is written in our hearts. It was for them as it is for us. They knew it was wrong, and God punished them here on earth for it.
As paul said, before there was a law, I did not know coveting was coveting, but then the law came, and I died. When it was made official, the commandment killed. Before it was official. the command still stood, it just did not kill.
does this make more sense?
As paul said, before there was a law, I did not know coveting was coveting, but then the law came, and I died. When it was made official, the commandment killed. Before it was official. the command still stood, it just did not kill.
does this make more sense?
So I guess before Mosaic law was given, the only sin imputed was the inherent sin of Adam and any violation of conscience when you knew better?
That must mean that those destroyed in the flood and in Sodom knew what they were doing was wrong even if they had no official law against it.
If you want to get extremely technical about it, then there was some form of law before Moses. There was the law written on the hearts of man and there was even a direct law from God for sure.
Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
Gen 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.