Water Baptism-What Does God's Word Say?

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Sketch

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… these truly deceived folks who speak gobbledygook into the air and claim this is a gift of the Spirit.
That sounds familiar.

Acts 2:13
Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”
 

Sketch

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In other words: When you are joining a pentecostal church, remember to speak in tongues or you'll be rejected!

Speak in tongues and they'll declare you saved and indwelled by the Spirit.
That's a very vicious mischaracterization.
 

Sketch

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Respectfully, you are combining two different manifestation of tongues.
This is so typical of the anti-tongues/gifts crowd.
They will define tongues to their liking and then make all sorts of erroneous statements about them.
Those who don't speak in tongues, but rather speak out against them, enjoy telling the rest of us what they are and how and when they are to be used, or not used. I have identified at least five kinds of tongues.

Five Different kinds of tongues
1) Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic prayer language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)
 

Wansvic

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-Hence, Paul's epistles have zero instruction for the church today for baptisms, laying of hands, etc...
The following is a portion of Paul’s letter recorded in the Book of Hebrews expressing there is a difference between foundation and Christian living principles; milk and strong meat.

Clearly, Paul is speaking to those who have obeyed the elementary principles of laying the foundation given by the Apostle Peter on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:38) This is expressed by his comment that it is not necessary to “lay again” the foundation.

Evidently there was dispute, because the impact of following the instructions given by Peter was not completely understood.

In essence, Paul’s comments reflect the following:
  • All must obey Jesus in order for a proper foundation to be put in place. (See Heb 6:1-2 below)
  • After the foundation is laid it is not necessary to lay it again, in fact it would be useless to try.
  • After obedience to the milk of the Word; repentance, water baptism and Holy Ghost baptism the individual is to search the strong meat of the Word; pursuing perfection.
1. “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.´ Heb 5:9

2. “For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” Heb 5:12-14

Notice the following scripture where Paul goes on to say the principles/foundation of the teaching of Christ is repentance, water baptism, and Holy Ghost baptism by the laying on of hands. After which resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment will take place:

3.“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.” (Hebrews 6:1-2)
 

Sketch

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The following is a portion of Paul’s letter recorded in the Book of Hebrews expressing there is a difference between foundation and Christian living principles; milk and strong meat.

Clearly, Paul is speaking to those who have obeyed the elementary principles of laying the foundation given by the Apostle Peter on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:38) This is expressed by his comment that it is not necessary to “lay again” the foundation.

Evidently there was dispute, because the impact of following the instructions given by Peter was not completely understood.

In essence, Paul’s comments reflect the following:
  • All must obey Jesus in order for a proper foundation to be put in place. (See Heb 6:1-2 below)
  • After the foundation is laid it is not necessary to lay it again, in fact it would be useless to try.
  • After obedience to the milk of the Word; repentance, water baptism and Holy Ghost baptism the individual is to search the strong meat of the Word; pursuing perfection.
1. “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.´ Heb 5:9

2. “For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” Heb 5:12-14

Notice the following scripture where Paul goes on to say the principles/foundation of the teaching of Christ is repentance, water baptism, and Holy Ghost baptism by the laying on of hands. After which resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment will take place:

3.“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.” (Hebrews 6:1-2)
Those are great points.
Anyone that claims that the ministry of the laying on of hands is not for today is attempting to remove a block, or blocks, from our foundation. Just as in the physical realm, this would weaken the whole structure, so in the spiritual realm.

What foolishness to tamper with the foundation of the church Christ is building.
 

Lanolin

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I do think the laying on of hands is sometimes missed in church.
Some people are very 'hands off' in their prayer and ministry. But God wants to reach out and touch people.

There are many times in the Bible that God manifests and is physically near, but I think people are rather afraid of physically experiencing Him. For example, Jacob wrestled with God till the break of day and had a limp to show for it. Jesus asked Thomas to touch the scars on his hands and feet so he would not doubt that he was risen. Jesus praised the woman who reached out to touch the hem of his garment, saying she her faith had made her well. Jesus washed his disciples feet.
TImothy was ordained with the laying on of hands. When the apostles went out, they laid hands on people and God healed them.
 

Sketch

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I do think the laying on of hands is sometimes missed in church.
Some people are very 'hands off' in their prayer and ministry. But God wants to reach out and touch people.

There are many times in the Bible that God manifests and is physically near, but I think people are rather afraid of physically experiencing Him. For example, Jacob wrestled with God till the break of day and had a limp to show for it. Jesus asked Thomas to touch the scars on his hands and feet so he would not doubt that he was risen. Jesus praised the woman who reached out to touch the hem of his garment, saying she her faith had made her well. Jesus washed his disciples feet.
TImothy was ordained with the laying on of hands. When the apostles went out, they laid hands on people and God healed them.
That's an interesting view, and an interesting topic.

The laying on of hands ministry is less about physical touching than it is about being a conduit for the power of God.
And ironically, sometimes we are advised not to touch in the laying on of hands ministry.
 

Lanolin

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That's an interesting view, and an interesting topic.

The laying on of hands ministry is less about physical touching than it is about being a conduit for the power of God.
And ironically, sometimes we are advised not to touch in the laying on of hands ministry.
Also Jesus blessed the children by laying hands on them.
 

Blik

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A symbol never saves, it is a teaching tool to show what god is actually doing,

Circumcision was a symbol. The bible says that was all it was, our spiritual circumcicion was done by the hand of God, baptism is the same water is the symbol, spiritual baptism is what it represents, either way, jesus calls attributing the work of God to the hands or work of men is blasphemy of the HS, so if i was you i would be more worried about commiting the unpardonable sin, that tryint to do anything else
I don't think we can toss out all scripture except what saves. That would be asking any scripture "what good does this scripture do for me personally, if it doesn't give my what I want I don't want to hear it".

Also, you are separating and making materialist everything in scripture. It is another of those saying if works won't save, toss out works. '

If you toss out all symbolism in scripture saying "it won't save toss it" you are missing a lot of what God has to offer you. God's way is to use symbolism to explain His way to us, God doesn't say it won't save you so get rid of it.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I don't think we can toss out all scripture except what saves. That would be asking any scripture "what good does this scripture do for me personally, if it doesn't give my what I want I don't want to hear it".

Also, you are separating and making materialist everything in scripture. It is another of those saying if works won't save, toss out works. '

If you toss out all symbolism in scripture saying "it won't save toss it" you are missing a lot of what God has to offer you. God's way is to use symbolism to explain His way to us, God doesn't say it won't save you so get rid of it.
Take a symbol for what it is..

Take what the symbol symbolises for what it is
 

Wansvic

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A symbol never saves, it is a teaching tool to show what god is actually doing,

Circumcision was a symbol. The bible says that was all it was, our spiritual circumcicion was done by the hand of God, baptism is the same water is the symbol, spiritual baptism is what it represents, either way, jesus calls attributing the work of God to the hands or work of men is blasphemy of the HS, so if i was you i would be more worried about commiting the unpardonable sin, that tryint to do anything else
If circumcision and water baptism are just symbols why does the Word indicate otherwise:

Gen 17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Moses neglected to circumcise one of his sons and the Lord met Him at the Inn to kill him:
Ex 4:24-26
And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him.
Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.
So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

The tabernacle laver is a foreshadow of the New Testament water baptism. Moses was told to wash Aaron and his sons as entrance into the priesthood. If they did not wash in the laver before attempting to enter the tabernacle they would DIE:

Ex 29:4
And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.

Ex 30:20
When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not;

These scriptures indicate there were consequences for those who chose not to obey God's commands.

In addition, the unpardonable sin is when someone attributes the casting out of devils to satan's kingdom/fallen angels:
Mark 3:22-30
22And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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If circumcision and water baptism are just symbols why does the Word indicate otherwise:

Gen 17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Moses neglected to circumcise one of his sons and the Lord met Him at the Inn to kill him:
Ex 4:24-26
And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him.
Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.
So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

The tabernacle laver is a foreshadow of the New Testament water baptism. Moses was told to wash Aaron and his sons as entrance into the priesthood. If they did not wash in the laver before attempting to enter the tabernacle they would DIE:

Ex 29:4
And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.

Ex 30:20
When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not;

These scriptures indicate there were consequences for those who chose not to obey God's commands.

In addition, the unpardonable sin is when someone attributes the casting out of devils to satan's kingdom/fallen angels:
Mark 3:22-30
22And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
It does

Col 2: 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the [i]handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
 

Wansvic

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It does

Col 2: 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the [i]handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
You make my point with this scripture reference. One has to submit to both baptisms; water and Spirit (verse 12) and due to that expression of faith God works the miracle of a Spiritual rebirth.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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You make my point with this scripture reference. One has to submit to both baptisms; water and Spirit (verse 12) and due to that expression of faith God works the miracle of a Spiritual rebirth.
Wrong

This passage says the spiritual saves, not the physical.

The physical has no power to save, anymore than the sacrifices of the OT could saved, because the one doing the work was a sinner himself.
 

Wansvic

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Wrong

This passage says the spiritual saves, not the physical.

The physical has no power to save, anymore than the sacrifices of the OT could saved, because the one doing the work was a sinner himself.
This scripture you posted says within its text that we are considered buried with Him (Jesus) when we get baptized. We follow God's command to be baptized and God does the work.
It does not say you believed therefore you are buried with Him.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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This scripture you posted says within its text that we are considered buried with Him (Jesus) when we get baptized. We follow God's command to be baptized and God does the work.
It does not say you believed therefore you are buried with Him.
No,

It says we were buried with him in baptism and also raised in faith, and all (the burial and rising) of it was the work of God it is a spiritual baptism not the physical baptism

Physical baptism is not mentioned in this passage,
 

Wansvic

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No,

It says we were buried with him in baptism and also raised in faith, and all (the burial and rising) of it was the work of God it is a spiritual baptism not the physical baptism

Physical baptism is not mentioned in this passage,
According to the Interlinear bible and the Strong's Concordance this scripture as well as another corresponding one in Romans 6:4 are referencing water baptism. The scripture context includes forgiveness of sins in the process. We know from Paul's water baptism record in Acts 22:16 and Acts 2:38 that sins are forgiven during water baptism.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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According to the Interlinear bible and the Strong's Concordance this scripture as well as another corresponding one in Romans 6:4 are referencing water baptism. The scripture context includes forgiveness of sins in the process. We know from Paul's water baptism record in Acts 22:16 and Acts 2:38 that sins are forgiven during water baptism.
No, the word baptizo CAN mean a physical baptism but it does not always, it is a verb, it means to place into or plunge.

Baptism in water is being immersed or placed into christ
Baptism into burial and death means being immersed or placed into the death and burial of christ

Just like being baptized into moses means to be placed into moses.

Another flaw of the english language texts because they did not interpret the word.
 

Wansvic

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No, the word baptizo CAN mean a physical baptism but it does not always, it is a verb, it means to place into or plunge.

Baptism in water is being immersed or placed into christ
Baptism into burial and death means being immersed or placed into the death and burial of christ


Just like being baptized into moses means to be placed into moses.

Another flaw of the english language texts because they did not interpret the word.
You mention baptizo CAN mean a physical baptism but it does not always. So you interpret it to mean what you think it means. Upon further study as I posted: The scripture context of Colossians Chapter 2 includes forgiveness of sins in the process. We know from Paul's water baptism record in Acts 22:16 and Acts 2:38 that sins are forgiven during water baptism.
The Word will always confirm itself by 2 or 3 witnesses. (Matthew 18:16)
 
Mar 14, 2011
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You mention baptizo CAN mean a physical baptism but it does not always. So you interpret it to mean what you think it means. Upon further study as I posted: The scripture context of Colossians Chapter 2 includes forgiveness of sins in the process. We know from Paul's water baptism record in Acts 22:16 and Acts 2:38 that sins are forgiven during water baptism.
The Word will always confirm itself by 2 or 3 witnesses. (Matthew 18:16)
You just did what you judged me of doing, you interpreted using your own thinking

You need to think

In the book of Colossians, paul was talking about a spiritual circumcision done by the hand of God not the hand of men, God accomplished this spiritual circumcision by buring us in baptism and raising us to new life.

So paul would be contradicting himself saying this baptism which accomplishes the spiritual circumcision done by the hands of God not men, is really done by the hand of men in a physical baptism

It is not my thinking which i come up with what baptism is spoken of, it is also using the text itself and the rules of language (in the case of romans 6) where you have baptism being interpreted as baptise in water, so literally interpreting the passage in your belief, i would see,

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were (baptized in water) into Jesus Christ were (baptized in water )into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by (baptism in water) into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


You see how again, your interpretation does not fit, because you can not add water in the passage, thus one must conclude we are actually being baptized literally into the christ and his death not water. (Which fits the defenition of the greek word transliterated not translated into the english text)

You can use strongs all you want, just because it can mean something does not mean it does, in niether of these passages is the physical act of being baptized into water by the hands of men in context.