We are called to obedience, but works won’t save. Please explain.

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Blade

Active member
Nov 19, 2019
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#41
So whats the focus here? Seems self. We read others talk about obey and commandments, law. He said..... And this is love that we walk according to His commandments. This is the very commandment you have heard from the beginning that you must walk in love.

Its right there from the start..can you see it? :) Love.. everything built on that. What did Peter have to do to make sure he could walk on the water? Keep your eyes on Jesus. The author and finisher of your faith. HAHA this is Jesus.. right here talking.. author and finisher of our faith. <--that popped in to my head. So Let me go look up that verse and what does it say?

"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer, originator, author, founder and perfecter of our faith who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scoming its shame and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

From the start.. first thought was "whats the focus here"?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
9,665
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#42
I like your way of explanation: "A person comes into initial salvation without works".
Come is verb.
But there is different concept of salvation between Protestant and catholic

Salvation by faith and work on catholic view are baptism sacrament, Eucharist etc

But Protestant is salvation by faith than your faith in Jesus will produce a fruit

John 15:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

What kind of work you will produce by yourself?

Nothing

Jesus in you will produce good work. Not you
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#43
Noah still had to build an ark.
Yes, as Christ worked in him to both will and do the good pleasure of God . Just as Abel the first recorded martyr .The same way he works in believers here.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,521
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#44
Come is verb.
But there is different concept of salvation between Protestant and catholic

Salvation by faith and work on catholic view are baptism sacrament, Eucharist etc

But Protestant is salvation by faith than your faith in Jesus will produce a fruit

John 15:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

What kind of work you will produce by yourself?

Nothing



Jesus in you will produce good work. Not you
Faith is a work? Faith the will or plan of God cannot be separate from the work . Let there be (the will) and it was good, the pleasure of the will.

Many confuse the faith needed to believe God in so much that it must come from God. offering faith towards Him by something we do is a dead work .Dead men have no faith

Salvation is a work of God's faith working in men .By it we can beleive. Without his faith doing the first work giving us ears to hear His understanding no man could please Him

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: Philipians 2:13-14
 

Kim82

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,335
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#45
Romans 10: 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

Any time the law or working to obey is mentioned on this site there is a loud outcry that works won’t save. This is true, it is only through Christ we are saved, not by our works. Sometimes it brings the comment that the law is cancelled. And yet scripture is full of instructions to us to obey, and that is works under laws that are alive and well. Explain.
We are saved by grace that is true.

But it makes sense that we will follow God's commandments, as much as we are able to.

If you have a friend who is a drunkard, if you keep hanging out with him at the bar, he will eventually get you to take a sip of something.

Its the same way with a Christian who loves God and keeps hanging out with Him. His ways will rub off on you.

Reading the Bible and listening to good sermons will also make you into a wise person.

Only a foolish person will reject good advice.

The Bible shows us the good and proper way to live our lives. So if someone who says they believe in God, yet rejects the sayings of God, I don't think that makes much sense.

So its all about how you look at it.

When someone says, you must do this or you must do that. You must work! It seems strange because the scripture says we are saved through grace.

But when you look at it from the perspective of: as a child of God, its natural for me to do the things that are pleasing to my Father. It all makes perfect sense.

But we get into trouble when we try to over do things by thinking that if we are not perfect, God will reject us. No, He won't.

But we must respect Him enough, to live by His commands as well as we are able to, and He does help us in this regard so we just need to depend on Him.

Some things are hard for us to do, and there is a struggle. But the grace of God is more than sufficient for us. We just need to confess our weaknesses to God, and He will have mercy on us.

But not everything is a struggle, and God will let His children bear fruits, right in the midst of their weakness :D
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
9,665
926
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#46
Faith is a work? Faith the will or plan of God cannot be separate from the work . Let there be (the will) and it was good, the pleasure of the will.

Many confuse the faith needed to believe God in so much that it must come from God. offering faith towards Him by something we do is a dead work .Dead men have no faith

Salvation is a work of God's faith working in men .By it we can beleive. Without his faith doing the first work giving us ears to hear His understanding no man could please Him

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: Philipians 2:13-14
Faith is believe, in grammar stand point believe is verb
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
5,524
956
113
#47
Yes, as Christ worked in him to both will and do the good pleasure of God . Just as Abel the first recorded martyr .The same way he works in believers here.
You mean Christ Jesus helped him to build that ark?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
9,665
926
113
#48
I remember one say, faith create a lot of work.
For example, after Paul have faith in Jesus, he preach the gospel every where, that take a lot of energy
 
Jan 25, 2015
6,644
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#49
To say I am obedient to God’s word for salvation, is the same as to say I respect my parents because I want to inherent something… it is just not true. I am obedient to them and respect them because I love them and they are my parents. The same with God, we honour and respect him by obeying him because he is our Father and King.

For the non-rebellious it is not a difficult concept I would think…
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
32,213
10,319
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#50
I remember one say, faith create a lot of work.
For example, after Paul have faith in Jesus, he preach the gospel every where, that take a lot of energy
For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. :)
 

Benadam

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
957
212
43
#52
They would be the faithless ones that crucify Christ over and over as if one demonstration of the Father and the Son fell short o
Garee, that would be about the best we could come up with if we didn't teach what we've seen.
Christ crucified is not just temporal. Because Jesus is eternal his entire journey from conception to death and resurrection are eternal realities too. Think of his power to forgive. Still happening today. Like that spiritual reality we know it as tangible and real. Its not an intellectual concoction.
His suffering on the cross is central in heaven so it's easy for me to believe that the cross is still happening today. Whether or not we are able to access it.
The first Christians gathered around the breaking of bread.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,583
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#53
I think its funny how many people quote 'faith without works is dead'.

There is no such thing as faith without works. Your faith will be the CAUSE of what you do or don't do.


If you believe that obedience to the law or "living" torah is what will save then that is what you will do.

If you believe that it is the Lord Jesus who saves and not your work at the law then you will rest in Christ and His Salvation that He has given.


The only reason why works at the law don't save is because you can't do them. Only Christ can. Your blessings don't come from your obedience, because you have none. Your blessings all come from Christ and His Grace towards you.

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Corinthians 3:7-9
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.


Why are the 10 commandments called the ministration of death and condemnation in SCRIPTURE? Because you can't do them!!! Your blessing is NEVER located in your "obedience".


But we are created in Christ unto good works. Do these good works go against the written law? No, of course not. They establish the written law. We are just not the SOURCE of these good works. The Lord Jesus Christ is the source.

It is the Fruit of the Spirit that is simultaneously the cause of your good works and the source of your obedience. These aren't traits that are created by your will or your work. They are given as gifts as you abide in Christ.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,521
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#54
Garee, that would be about the best we could come up with if we didn't teach what we've seen.
Christ crucified is not just temporal. Because Jesus is eternal his entire journey from conception to death and resurrection are eternal realities too. Think of his power to forgive. Still happening today. Like that spiritual reality we know it as tangible and real. Its not an intellectual concoction.
His suffering on the cross is central in heaven so it's easy for me to believe that the cross is still happening today. Whether or not we are able to access it.
The first Christians gathered around the breaking of bread.
What was seen, the corrupted flesh of the apostle Jesus is no longer viewable. We walk by faith the eternal not after the flesh the temporal. We know not man after the temporal to include Jesus. God is not a man! He is the power that worked in the Son of man Jesus' body of death just as with us.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

His sufferings in the garden parable demonstrated the work of him and the father. He is the lamb slain from before the foundation
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,521
113
#55
I think its funny how many people quote 'faith without works is dead'.

There is no such thing as faith without works. Your faith will be the CAUSE of what you do or don't do.


If you believe that obedience to the law or "living" torah is what will save then that is what you will do.

If you believe that it is the Lord Jesus who saves and not your work at the law then you will rest in Christ and His Salvation that He has given.


The only reason why works at the law don't save is because you can't do them. Only Christ can. Your blessings don't come from your obedience, because you have none. Your blessings all come from Christ and His Grace towards you.

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Corinthians 3:7-9
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.


Why are the 10 commandments called the ministration of death and condemnation in SCRIPTURE? Because you can't do them!!! Your blessing is NEVER located in your "obedience".


But we are created in Christ unto good works. Do these good works go against the written law? No, of course not. They establish the written law. We are just not the SOURCE of these good works. The Lord Jesus Christ is the source.

It is the Fruit of the Spirit that is simultaneously the cause of your good works and the source of your obedience. These aren't traits that are created by your will or your work. They are given as gifts as you abide in Christ.
Faith the most understood word in the whole Bible .

I think its funny how many people quote "faith" to will" (the plan) , without "works" to do the execution of the plan provides something?

There is such thing as faith working without works. It is the faith of Christ(the faith of God) working in us with us by which we can please the father. If we would have his work of faith in respect to our own selves then we have blasphemed his name . We should believe without murmuring. What about that guy or the other?

its like. Don't I get some credit for God working His faith in me.?

Think of it as fireworks . If someone forgot to bring the matches (power) the plan fails . No fire, no fireworks. No God working in us to both will and do his good pleasure .No faith .

Philippians 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV)
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,583
2,572
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#58
Faith the most understood word in the whole Bible .

I think its funny how many people quote "faith" to will" (the plan) , without "works" to do the execution of the plan provides something?

There is such thing as faith working without works. It is the faith of Christ(the faith of God) working in us with us by which we can please the father. If we would have his work of faith in respect to our own selves then we have blasphemed his name . We should believe without murmuring. What about that guy or the other?

its like. Don't I get some credit for God working His faith in me.?

Think of it as fireworks . If someone forgot to bring the matches (power) the plan fails . No fire, no fireworks. No God working in us to both will and do his good pleasure .No faith .

Philippians 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
I think I understand what you are saying here. Which is basically what I said but I said it much more condensed.

If you have faith in Christ you won't be working at the law. So it would look like, to the lawyer, that you have no works. Or not the regular works of the legalist and lawyer.

So in this regard, your faith would be working without works, or without works that some people might expect.


Kind of like Abraham when he said God would provide His Sacrifice. Abraham didn't then go looking for a ram. But his faith in God was shown by what he didn't do as much as by what he did do.

Faith is the motivator for all works and lack of works.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
3,322
1,038
113
#59
I think I understand what you are saying here. Which is basically what I said but I said it much more condensed.

If you have faith in Christ you won't be working at the law. So it would look like, to the lawyer, that you have no works. Or not the regular works of the legalist and lawyer.

So in this regard, your faith would be working without works, or without works that some people might expect.


Kind of like Abraham when he said God would provide His Sacrifice. Abraham didn't then go looking for a ram. But his faith in God was shown by what he didn't do as much as by what he did do.

Faith is the motivator for all works and lack of works.
How would it be possible to have faith in all of God including what Jesus did for us, but not have faith in His word if that word asks us to do something? The book of James tells us it isn't possible.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,583
2,572
113
#60
How would it be possible to have faith in all of God including what Jesus did for us, but not have faith in His word if that word asks us to do something? The book of James tells us it isn't possible.
That is exactly correct. The book of James tells you it isn't possible.

If the Lord Jesus has given you rest from your work at the law do you treat what the Lord Jesus did for us as garbage and go back to doing what was given to an entirely different people group and not yourself?

The answer, according to James, is that you have a dead faith in the Lord Jesus. Which is really the way of saying no faith.


How can you have faith in your Rest in Christ if you read somewhere else that you need to work? You have to choose between faith in Christ or faith in your understanding.


The awesome thing about faith in Christ is that He fulfills everything that you would try to work at MUCH better than you ever could. But you have to place your faith in Christ in order to find this out.