We are called to obedience, but works won’t save. Please explain.

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Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#1
Romans 10: 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

Any time the law or working to obey is mentioned on this site there is a loud outcry that works won’t save. This is true, it is only through Christ we are saved, not by our works. Sometimes it brings the comment that the law is cancelled. And yet scripture is full of instructions to us to obey, and that is works under laws that are alive and well. Explain.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
17,755
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#2
That veil of Moses has never completely gone away with man. They become a law to themselves against obedience not coming to the understanding that our Father-s guidance is our manner of reflecting His love. Keep them in your prayers, as it is certain you do.
 
May 19, 2020
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#3
Romans 10: 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

Any time the law or working to obey is mentioned on this site there is a loud outcry that works won’t save. This is true, it is only through Christ we are saved, not by our works. Sometimes it brings the comment that the law is cancelled. And yet scripture is full of instructions to us to obey, and that is works under laws that are alive and well. Explain.

The Lord teaches us to obey...you can’t learn it by yourself........we are in a relationship with God he leads us by the Spirit.....you never rely on self....you walk in Faith....not by your own feelings.
 
May 19, 2020
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#4
Our works can not bring us to salvation.

Only the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives can bring us to salvation.

He woo/drew me to him with no knowledge of the Bible..never ever read it,......I cried out to Jesus in desperation,....the Lord heard and in he came....I knew instantly that it was the Holy Spirit..he testified to my spirit that I was his child......instantly I fell in Love with God.
 

Bingo

Well-known member
Feb 9, 2019
3,355
2,546
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#6
Our works can not bring us to salvation.

Only the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives can bring us to salvation.

He woo/drew me to him with no knowledge of the Bible..never ever read it,......I cried out to Jesus in desperation,....the Lord heard and in he came....I knew instantly that it was the Holy Spirit..he testified to my spirit that I was his child......instantly I fell in Love with God.

"Your words have a sound implication.
Thank you for sharing."
'Praise God'


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B

Bede

Guest
#7
My apologies for the length of this but I think it's important.

There is a misunderstanding as to what is meant by works in Paul's theology..
The Concise Oxford English Dictionary gives several definitions of work. The first and most general is:
“activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result.”

By this definition “believing” and “confessing with the lips” is work.
Indeed Jesus says that believing is a work.
Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
(John 6:29)

St. Paul’s writes much about salvation (justification) and works in his letter to the Romans. A key text is Rom 3:19-28, and a key phrase that Paul uses in this is “works of the law
20 For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

(He also uses the phrase works of the law in Gal 2:1, 3:2, 5 & 10)

This implies that Paul recognises two classes of “works” – works of the law and works that are not works of the law. We’ll come to the latter later. But let us concentrate on what Paul means by works of the law.

In Romans 2 he writes
25 Circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.
And in Gal 3:10
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them."
Clearly by works of the law Paul is referring to the Jewish law.

The Concise Oxford English Dictionary helpfully gives a definition of this class of works -
such activity as a means of earning income”.

It is in this sense of earning something that Paul uses the word in Rom 4:4 when he writes:
“Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due.” (Rom 4:4)

Works done under the law are those done under some sort of legal contract that try to put an obligation on God – to make salvation our due. We try to earn our salvation

If we work, as for an employer, expecting wages as our due, then we will be judged under that Law and will always be found wanting and will be condemned.

That is why we can only receive salvation as a gift. It cannot be earned.
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

There is another class of works – works that are not works of the law.
The third definition in Concise Oxford English Dictionary is helpful here –
Theology, good or moral deeds”

Doing “good works” give us merit in the sight of God because they are done out of love and do not attempt to put God under any obligation to reward us.

One definition of merit from the Collins Concise English Dictionary is:
“ a deserving or commendable quality or act.”
When we do something out of love and not as a contract under Law we do a deserving or commendable act and God will graciously reward us.
“love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High” (Lk 6:35)

“I the Lord search the mind and try the heart, to give to every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.” (Jer 17:10)

“Whoever does good has his reward, which each receives according to his deeds.”(Sir 16:14)

We could give examples of these three definitions of work as follows:
1. – Digging my garden (general definition).
2. – Digging someone else’s garden for a wage (work as earning income)
3. – Digging an elderly neighbour’s garden out of charity (work as a good deed and meritorious – a commendable act)

Paul writes: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast”. (Eph 2:8-9)

Whereas James writes: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?” (Jas 2:14)

These two are not contradictory if we understand that Paul is referring to works of the law and James is referring to good deeds, meritorious acts, just as in the examples he gives in the following verses:
“If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?”
These are the type of works Jesus refers to in Mt 25:31-45 and Mt 10:41-42

Further, from my examples of digging a garden we can see that it is not the act itself that is good or bad but the cause of the act, the motive. If the act is motivated by love then it is meritorious and God will reward us. If it is driven by other motives (e.g. to get admiration from others) then we may get no reward, at least from God.

“Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven…….” (Mt 6:1 & following verses)
 
Jun 5, 2018
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#8
Romans 10: 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

Any time the law or working to obey is mentioned on this site there is a loud outcry that works won’t save. This is true, it is only through Christ we are saved, not by our works. Sometimes it brings the comment that the law is cancelled. And yet scripture is full of instructions to us to obey, and that is works under laws that are alive and well. Explain.
You mean Romans 1:5, not 10:5.
"obedience that comes from faith", some translations say "obedience to the faith".
One thing for certain, it's not referring to the OT law as you put it.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,714
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#9
Faith without works saves.

Obedience is a trait in the faithful believer.
James 2
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone

I don't think a dead faith will save a person?!
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,714
1,052
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#10
Romans 10: 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

Any time the law or working to obey is mentioned on this site there is a loud outcry that works won’t save. This is true, it is only through Christ we are saved, not by our works. Sometimes it brings the comment that the law is cancelled. And yet scripture is full of instructions to us to obey, and that is works under laws that are alive and well. Explain.
We are saved by grace through faith, and not by works.
We stay saved by grace through faith, and not by works .
But we are HIS workmanship created unto good works.

All religions except Christianity teach a salvation by works. And it is easy to see that many try to bring that same salvation by works to Christianity. That is why some cry out so loudly at any mention of works or obedience. It is a right and just cause to cry out against a salvation that teaches salvation by works!

But Satan also has another trick he uses in Christianity. That trick it get people "saved," or to think they are saved, and to then have then live a life of sin and disobedience without the power of the Holy Spirit and without the joy or peace of God. Faith and obedience are not two separate entities that can be easily separated. It is impossible to have one without the other. True faith will produce some manner of works.

Teaching that minimizes and mocks the importance and the blessing of obedience and works leads to lukewarm and weak Christianity. It is a huge problem in the church in America today. New believers that are told that works are not needed, but are simply optional, will often just keep on living the way they did before they were "saved". Paul commanded his readers to do works, and we need to do the same.
 
B

Bede

Guest
#11
We are saved by grace through faith, and not by works.
We stay saved by grace through faith, and not by works .
But we are HIS workmanship created unto good works.

All religions except Christianity teach a salvation by works. And it is easy to see that many try to bring that same salvation by works to Christianity. That is why some cry out so loudly at any mention of works or obedience. It is a right and just cause to cry out against a salvation that teaches salvation by works!

But Satan also has another trick he uses in Christianity. That trick it get people "saved," or to think they are saved, and to then have then live a life of sin and disobedience without the power of the Holy Spirit and without the joy or peace of God. Faith and obedience are not two separate entities that can be easily separated. It is impossible to have one without the other. True faith will produce some manner of works.

Teaching that minimizes and mocks the importance and the blessing of obedience and works leads to lukewarm and weak Christianity. It is a huge problem in the church in America today. New believers that are told that works are not needed, but are simply optional, will often just keep on living the way they did before they were "saved". Paul commanded his readers to do works, and we need to do the same.
What kind of works - see post #7?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
26,675
3,854
113
#12
Romans 10: 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

Any time the law or working to obey is mentioned on this site there is a loud outcry that works won’t save. This is true, it is only through Christ we are saved, not by our works. Sometimes it brings the comment that the law is cancelled. And yet scripture is full of instructions to us to obey, and that is works under laws that are alive and well. Explain.
IMO, your explanation misses the point of obedience after salvation........

Christians are PURPOSED by God FOR good works and God clearly expects His children to be obedient to Him.

Ephesians, Chapter 2:

8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



The Law of the Old Testament is not in play for the Church today. What is in play is the Law of Faith that Paul defined in his Epistles, Romans, Chapter 3, vs. 28-31. IMO, the only Laws/Commandments that transcended from the 1st Covenant, Law to the New Covenant, Grace are the Laws dealing with Moral living. This is revealed in the 1st Chapter of Romans. As well, the 10 Commandments are Laws governing moral living, and that is why IMO they are still in play for the Church today.

I know there is an element here who (when obedience is mentioned) go wacco and start hollering "works salvation," I don't care. ANY PERSON who believes a man can live in DISOBEDIENCE to God and STILL receive eternal salvation is either a fool or a liar.............

Obedience comes after salvation........with the possible exception being the act of believing who Chris is as stated in John 3:16.

In Revelation, Scripture tells us that Christ stands at our hearts door and knocks............IF we open the door and invite Him into our lives to be Lord and Savior.............that is our salvation.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
26,675
3,854
113
#13
Teaching that minimizes and mocks the importance and the blessing of obedience and works leads to lukewarm and weak Christianity. It is a huge problem in the church in America today. New believers that are told that works are not needed, but are simply optional, will often just keep on living the way they did before they were "saved". Paul commanded his readers to do works, and we need to do the same.

truedat.png
 
Feb 29, 2020
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#14
James 2
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone

I don't think a dead faith will save a person?!
Works show that the faith is genuine and living.

It ties into obedience/works being a trait in the faithful and true believer.

But a person comes into initial salvation without works.

I responded to the OP's title briefly not intending to cover the full scope of the topic.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,714
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#15
Works show that the faith is genuine and living.

It ties into obedience/works being a trait in the faithful and true believer.

But a person comes into initial salvation without works.

I responded to the OP's title briefly not intending to cover the full scope of the topic.
I do no think the matter of faith and works is any different at initial salvation (justification) than at ongoing salvation (sanctification). Faith without works is dead under any cirucumstances.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
12,642
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#16
And yet scripture is full of instructions to us to obey, and that is works under laws that are alive and well. Explain.
It is not very complicated. Once a person is saved by grace through faith they are expected to obey the Law of Christ and His commandments. Read and study the first epistle of John.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
3,322
1,037
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#17
Faith without works saves.

Obedience is a trait in the faithful believer.
Please explain. Are you saying that you can have faith is Jesus to save, and Jesus will save you from the sins you intend to keep?
 
Feb 29, 2020
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#19
Are you saying that you can have faith is Jesus to save, and Jesus will save you from the sins you intend to keep?
Here'e the process according to scripture:

The gospel is presented.

People have the choice of believing, or not believing, the gospel, after hearing it.

Works has nothing to do with it because the purpose of the gospel is to cleanse believers from their past sins in order to be acceptable to God unto salvation (works cannot accomplish this).

Now the believer is counseled by the scriptures to leave off the body of the sins of the flesh and put on the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Walking in the new man enables the believer to establish the law.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
3,322
1,037
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#20
Bede wrote: [QUOTE="Bede, post: 4280643, member: 294725" [
Clearly by works of the law Paul is referring to the Jewish law.

Blik wrote: Thanks so much for your wonderful study of works. I agree, and it has given background and reasons, a wonderful study.

I think that the sentence I have copied is the most important sentence of your study. When God gave circumcision it was not the cutting of flesh that was the essence of the law at all, it was what the cutting of flesh signified.

When the Lord said you need not cut the flesh any longer the Lord was not taking back the law, but the law of Moses. That law did not contain the ten commandments.