What 3 verses say that a lost man cannot believe the gospel?

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EleventhHour

Guest
So far its clear there are no verses that say that " a lost man cannot believe the gospel?
but what we can see is the ' proof texts 'used out of context that folks believe say this .
First, pull verses out to of context to fit the dogma,

Second, change word meanings, twist, embellish and deny the plain reading of scripture to support the created dogma so it looks like it harmonizes,

Then, make it sound like a systematic theology that appeals to the intellect and the hard hearted

......but it is far from the truth.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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a lost man cannot believe the gospel?
  • suppose a lost man believes the gospel.
    • whoever believes is saved ((theorem John 3:15))
    • it follows that the lost man is not lost
      • contradiction
    • therefore the assumption is invalid:
  • a lost man cannot believe the gospel; only saved people believe

    QED
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text. ... Exegesis is drawing out text's meaning in accordance with the author's context and discoverable meaning.
great, you declare by fiat.

so i bet you are ready now to tell us all about John 8:47 including its context without eisegeting . . ?
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
  • suppose a lost man believes the gospel.
    • whoever believes is saved ((theorem John 3:15))
    • it follows that the lost man is not lost
      • contradiction
    • therefore the assumption is invalid:
  • a lost man cannot believe the gospel; only saved people believe

    QED
Correction and biblical TRUTH
  • a lost man believes the gospel and is saved
    • whoever believes is saved ((theorem John 3:15)) Truth statement
    • it follows that the lost man was lost and is now found Truth statement
      • tautology
    • therefore the premise is valid:
  • a lost man can believe the gospel; people who believe are saved :) Truth statement
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
the blinding of Israel is fact, and it's not because God hates them.
yep he blinded them by putting truth in front of them. And in doing so strengthened their own unbelief,Just like he did pharaoh, he started small, and each time pharaoh resisted of his own free will, the stronger his unbelief got.

thats called hardening ones heart, or having ones heart hardened, we do it all the time to certain things. At least many of us do

he did not force them to not believe
thanks; i got occupied before i could edit my post earlier to give the rest of this passage.

he didn't preach with persuasive arguments and wisdom; He preached with the power of God.
however to those who do believe and grow in the testimony, he preached wisdom and persuaded with careful arguments from scripture. those who drank milk, were fed meat. the lactose intolerant, not so much.
because the natural man cannot receive these things - but when by the power of God the testimony is heard by those who are of God, they are supernaturally perfected, and can comprehend the mystery that is revealed in the person and work of Christ. the gospel is: the person and work of Christ.
he did not speak with persuasive argument and wisdom when he declared the testimony of God, in order that our faith would be in the power of God, not in the ability of the preacher to cause us to understand. it is not by careful explanation that one hears and understands; else our faith would be in the persuasion of the preacher. it is by the power of God that one hears and understands - and so it is He has chosen, '
the foolishness of preaching' -- and so it is He spoke in parables declaring the gospel, so that those "who have" will be given more, and those "who do not have" but who hear exactly the same thing being said, even what they have is "taken away"

this is not a description of salvation resting on the persuasion of preaching.
this is a description of preaching being the chosen instrument through which the power of God works.
it is a supernatural process -- not a natural one.
the power of God, not the strength, ability or will of men.
do not forget the corinthian church, has to be fed milk not meat, they were gods children sealed by the spirit regenerated because they were justified.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Absurd to think that John the Baptist was preaching to repent/change of mind to people who had already repented.

You make the word of God and Paul both liars

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31).

He should have stated, "Pray for your regeneration so you can believe."
Only those given the power of regeneration can believe. It is the work of God's mercy that we can . (John 6) Not of our own selves.

Words need to be defined and shown used in examples for context . Repenting is a work that God works in us. It is not of ourselves

Strongs Hebrew :5162 Comfort repent
The KJV translates Strongs : comfort (57), repent (41), comforter (9), ease (1) Outline of Biblical Usage 1. to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret,
comfort, be comforted
The work of the comforter .God comforting himself by having mercy. Then having repented he calls us to hear him and gives us the mercy and faith to believe in a God not seen . After he has turned us by His labor of His love or called a work of His faith. We can then turn and comfort our own selves and return to our first love. Hearing His understanding.

To repent is to ease one self of pain, have the mercy to change one's mind for the better.

Two works of turning. First God comforts repents his own self and with that comfort he turns us.

Jeremiah 31:18- King James Version (KJV) I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.

Above God is shown doing the first work of turning .And then having been turn He continues to works in them to finish the good work he began .Mankind receive no reward of self for God moving them to both will and perform His good pleasure.


Jeremiah 31:19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
He didn't reach out and save any of us.
We reached out and accepted the free gift of grace that God sent to save the world and whosoever believes.
He reached out to save us, we only in faith bowed down so he could save us

the tax collector did not reach out, he got on his knees unable even to look up, God grabbed him
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Only those given the power of regeneration can believe.
Regenerated and Believe for what purpose ?

I am not even sure if you believe that Jesus was both God and man?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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Poor bible study is when we use inductive reasoning and generalising, instead of carefully reading simply what it says . Not what it doesn't say .
Catholics do this when they say things like " The bible doesn't say we can't pray to Mary " therfore concluding by it not saying this its OK. Thats what your doing here . What is Paul talking about in Verse 6 of 1 cor 2 ? Its about things spoken amoung mature believers that is contrasted about the carnal believers not able yet to understand. The chapters are about carnality within the Church .
Yes, I agree that there are babes in Christ (newly born again) that are members of the church. These are the ones that the mature members should be teaching, and preaching to. They are referred to in other scriptures as "lost sheep of the house of Israel". None of this has anything to do with the natural man, who has not been regenerated, and cannot discern spiritual things.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes, I agree that there are babes in Christ (newly born again) that are members of the church. These are the ones that the mature members should be teaching, and preaching to. They are referred to in other scriptures as "lost sheep of the house of Israel". None of this has anything to do with the natural man, who has not been regenerated, and cannot discern spiritual things.
If a natural man can not discern Christ crucified and risen, then ha can not be condemned for Not repenting from the unpardonable sin, because he never had a chance to repent.

by judicial decree, god being the perfect judge, that person would have to be pardoned.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Absurd to think that John the Baptist was preaching to repent/change of mind to people who had already repented.

You make the word of God and Paul both liars

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31).

He should have stated, "Pray for your regeneration so you can believe."
Those who have not been born with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit cannot believe in the things of the Spirit. Believing in spiritual things is not the cause of anyone's eternal deliverance. When a new born babe in Christ gradually learns the gospel and believes on the Lord Jesus he will experience a deliverance (salvation=deliverance, according to Greek) from his ignorance of the gospel. This deliverance is not his eternal deliverance, but a deliverance he receives here in this world in maturing in the knowledge of the gospel.

A misunderstanding of the salvation (deliverance) scriptures is why so many of God's children believe that there is something that they are to do in order to get eternally saved (delivered). The deliverances that we receive here in time are brought about by our good works. Our eternal deliverance is by God's sovereign grace, without the works of mankind.
 

soggykitten

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Jul 3, 2020
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So far its clear there are no verses that say that " a lost man cannot believe the gospel?......
Could you have used a larger more bold font? ;) :p


Maybe what will put it into perspective is to consider the chronological order of the new testament books themselves. Appendix 8: CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER OF THE BOOKS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.

Typically in Bible studies the book of Mark, recall too that the Gospels were anonymous, is characterized as the beginning of the Gospel.

Now, imagine what is being proposed by the OP question itself and the world prior to Jesus arrival. All people were sinners, condemned in their sins. And yet, in the old testament people then were saved by God's grace, just as they are saved today. It is nothing of ourselves. God sent himself to save the world from its sins. And whosoever believes in him shall not perish in their sins but shall instead have eternal salvation, which is eternal life.

In the old testament people of Israel, the Jews, sacrificed animals as an atoning for their sins. However, we who hold to the new testament cannot do so without its foundation, which is the old testament.
And I think we also have to remember that in all those animal sacrifices, what we cannot forget is what we're told in the book of Revelation. Jesus, is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The timeless grace of God foreordained our salvation from sin. Because time doesn't constrict nor apply to eternal God, only to us, God in his omniscience foresaw the fall of humanity. And as such also foreordained our salvation. That we may not live damned and without hope.
Where the false teachings intercede in this precious foreshadowing of God's eternal presence and eternal grace, is to believe and unfortunately teach, that this means God also predestined our fall. So as to predestine our Salvation.
They think because God predestined a time for us to find our way into his grace through our faith in him, that it means God predetermined whom he would permit to receive his grace. They corrupt the man made phrase, elect.

In so doing, they go even further and corrupt the eternal benevolence, kindness, of God. And all because the construct of their man made ideal pertains to time. Without regard or consideration to the fact that God is eternal and time does not pertain to him. Only to us.
Jesus was the lamb slain before the world was created. His sacrificial blood, the last pure unblemished lamb to be staked to the sin altar (cross) so as to take on the sins of the whole world, was predetermined by God, who was Jesus.
Those who have faith in the old testament, unto them it is counted as righteousness. Recall Abraham. For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered. "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account" Romans 4

Recall Job. "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:"

Recall the new testament. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Good News beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you all the nations will be blessed."

"Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss your servant in peace. For my eyes have seen your salvation, which you have prepared in the sight of all people, a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel."Luke 2:29-32
 

soggykitten

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God foresaw the fall, and predestined through his eternal grace before the world was created, a way to redeem humanity from the illusions of this world. That we are separate from our creator and are doomed by the trappings of this flesh and this world.

Now, when God gave himself, his son Jesus, as the sacrificial lamb slain for sins before the foundation of the world, and faith in God saved the old testament peoples, how would we think it possible that the new testaments sinners unto whom God as Jesus delivered in the flesh the promise, the Gospel, had prior to that insured no one listening to Jesus preach could understand a word of his good news? When God had already insured his blood would cover the sins of the world prior to its creation.

I think people forget that God was the word, the Gospel, itself. In the beginning was the word (God) and the word was with God, and the word was God.
Now, in the context of that scripture in John 1 lets re-read this in Romans 10. “So faith comes out of hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.”
And then apply it in a rewrite as we recall John 1. "So faith comes out of hearing and hearing through the word that is God as Christ.

When we hold faith in Jesus after hearing the Gospel spoken or taught to us, or we read scripture, the word that is God resonates within us as truth because we are of and from God. We come to God through Jesus, who was God. Jesus stands at the door and knocks. That door is the barrier, the veil of scripture, which is an illusion of separation, like unto the veil in the holy of hollies temple that separated the common worship area for the people from the sacred space behind it reserved for God's presence or light. That veil in Jerusalem was rent in twain (split apart) when Jesus became what appeared as the last sacrificial unblemished lamb staked to the sin altar so as to pay (propitiation) for the sins of the world.

That illusory separation, that veil, between ourselves and God was wrent in twain when Jesus, that lamb slain before the foundation of the world, died before the eyes of all sinners watching his crucifixion. And then, because the people in that time were well aware of the pains of crucifixion being they were under Roman rule, Jesus defeated the death the flesh would suffer in that instance by resurrecting after three days in a glorified body.
The illusion again revealed for what it was. What would normally be the death of a criminal on the cross, because the cross was reserved for the worst violators of Roman law and to set an example of what happened to law breakers, was not true, did not happen, in the case of Jesus.

He defeated death and lived to continue the ministry he started and for another forty days.

God's omniscience insures there is no thing God cannot know, ever. God died before the eyes of witnesses on that cross and before the eyes of witnesses, the first being a woman, walked the earth again.
The entirety of that truth is its own parable.

The flesh is an illusion. God's creation cannot die because it is of and from God, as was Jesus when he was begat upon Mary. The truth about the good news? You are more than this world leads you to believe!
Be ye holy as God is holy. Remember where you came from and be not afraid of what flesh encounters and suffers at its end.

The Gospel resonates in those who hear it because their sacred origin, of and from God, is brought to our attention in the teaching of that good news that we are of and from God. And if we believe and hold faith in that, we are saved from being what we think is fated for the mere human.

God foresaw his own, which is confused in some teachings who lead people to believe God ordained only select people to receive his grace,for whom the good news would resonate and hearken us to relationship with our source. We would open that door of awareness, behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone should hear My voice and open the door, then I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me, and be saved from the trappings , the illusion of separation, this world fosters in us as its own form of belief.

What about people who don't accept the gospel and believe? All that exists is of and from God. If people refuse to answer the door because they don't believe anything is there to knock on it in the first place, that is a form of belief too. And as we're told by God, they shall be eternally separated from God. But that doesn't mean they weren't of God and from God just like all else created.
It means they died in their illusion this world means all. And when they die they shall not be with the very power they insisted wasn't there in the first place. But that doesn't mean they're not part of God's creation. Think of it as matter and anti-matter.

They'll die but they will never really be separated from God. Just as they weren't in this life. They'll return to the God who created their soul. They don't need to believe that for God's power and presence to be true. Because God is greater than we think.

Prologue to the Gospel. John 1
In the beginning[a] was the Word, and the Word was with God,[b] and the Word was fully God.[c] 2 The Word[d] was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created[e] by him, and apart from him not one thing was created[f] that has been created.[g] 4 In him was life,[h] and the life was the light of mankind.[i] 5 And the light shines on[j] in the darkness,[k] but[l] the darkness has not mastered it.[m]



Ecclesiastes 12

Remember Your Creator in Your Youth
12 Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near of which you will say, “I have no pleasure in them”; 2 before the sun and the light and the moon and the stars are darkened and the clouds return after the rain, 3 in the day when the keepers of the house tremble, and the strong men are bent, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those who look through the windows are dimmed, 4 and the doors on the street are shut—when the sound of the grinding is low, and one rises up at the sound of a bird, and all the daughters of song are brought low— 5 they are afraid also of what is high, and terrors are in the way; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags itself along,[a] and desire fails, because man is going to his eternal home, and the mourners go about the streets— 6 before the silver cord is snapped, or the golden bowl is broken, or the pitcher is shattered at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern, 7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. 8 Vanity[b] of vanities, says the Preacher; all is vanity.

If the lost man cannot believe the Gospel, why does the word that is the Gospel, God, tell us so often to seek him? If we're predestined to either be saved or be damned and according to God choosing whom he would save and whom he would let die damned, why does God emplore us to seek him and believe? If we're unable to understand the Gospel, how are we able to begin to search? ;)

God is greater than we think.

Another and last thing I'll say, if a teaching in the scripture has an AD date for its entry into the New Testament and that date is after Christ and the disciples, it is a teaching of man. Jesus didn't forget to tell us something before he left. He was born to preach first. :) The word delivered what he wanted us to know.
Sheol, the grave, death, pre-existed the teaching as pertains to a bottomless pit filled, how does bottomless become full, with fire and brimstone.

That's why the Chronology of the scriptures is important too. God is our consuming fire. Hebrews 12.
 

soggykitten

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People sometimes teach we'll have the intellect and sense after death that we have in life. That's why Hell is so terrifying to some as they believe it to exist. But when God tells us our flesh shall return to the earth from whence it sprang and our soul unto the God who gave it, note that that truth doesn't equivocate. It doesn't say, the saved soul returns to the God who gave it. It says, the soul.

How we live, as good or bad people, saved or unredeemed, is what makes this world what it is. It takes all kinds to make it go round. Without the darkness we would not be aware of light. Without light we would not be aware of darkness, its opposite. Isaiah 45:7

I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the Lord, who accomplishes all these things.


HERESY!
You know what heresy is? That which is not in line with the orthodox doctrine.
This would mean Calvinism and many more denominational teachings are Heresy. ;)

You gotta think more of God than what you're being led to believe by men.


Long winded much? :LOL:
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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If a natural man can not discern Christ crucified and risen, then ha can not be condemned for Not repenting from the unpardonable sin, because he never had a chance to repent.

by judicial decree, god being the perfect judge, that person would have to be pardoned.
By God's foreknowledge he saw that no one would seek him, no, not one, Psalms 53:2 If God had not chosen an elect people from among those that would not seek him, none of us would go to heaven. Had God predestined all mankind to go to heaven, instead of giving them the freedom to choose for themselves, all mankind would be in heaven. God is "JUST" in his choosing.
 

soggykitten

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He reached out to save us, we only in faith bowed down so he could save us

the tax collector did not reach out, he got on his knees unable even to look up, God grabbed him
Is that what the scripture says?
Luke 18
9 Jesus[x] also told this parable to some who were confident that they were righteous and looked down[y] on everyone else. 10 “Two men went up[z] to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee[aa] and the other a tax collector.[ab] 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed about himself like this:[ac] ‘God, I thank[ad] you that I am not like other people:[ae] extortionists,[af] unrighteous people,[ag] adulterers—or even like this tax collector.[ah] 12 I fast twice[ai] a week; I give a tenth[aj] of everything I get.’ 13 The tax collector, however, stood[ak] far off and would not even look up[al] to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, be merciful[am] to me, sinner that I am!’[an] 14 I tell you that this man went down to his home justified[ao] rather than the Pharisee.[ap] For everyone who exalts[aq] himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”


The tulip doctrine, in any form, is that which allows the believer in it to exalt himself as one picked by God to be saved. While it must conversely teach God picked those whom he would damn. If all that was predetermined before the world by the creator of it, humans have no need to hold faith, hope, or belief. Because God already saved whom he would save and God does not change. (Numbers 23:19)
 

throughfaith

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  • suppose a lost man believes the gospel.
    • whoever believes is saved ((theorem John 3:15))
    • it follows that the lost man is not lost
      • contradiction
    • therefore the assumption is invalid:
  • a lost man cannot believe the gospel; only saved people believe

    QED
Yes whosever believes is saved .
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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great, you declare by fiat.

so i bet you are ready now to tell us all about John 8:47 including its context without eisegeting . . ?
if they were truly following the father then they would ' recognise ' the Son . They were not Following and learning of the Father and thus rejected the Son when they saw him and heard him . Unlike the ones genuinely learning of the Father and had not been decieved by the devil . This i s before the cross and the giving of the Holy spirit . To jews . This is not about gentiles in 2020 who cannot believe the G osepl
unless they are zapped by God in a hindu awakening experience.
 
Jul 6, 2020
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We all agree that man is inherently sinful and that he cannot redeem himself by any work.
We can all quote verses about the sinfulness of man.

I'm interested in the BEST verses you have that SAY [NOT JUST "IMPLY"] that a lost man cannot believe the gospel.

If you had to choose, say, the 3 clearest and most relevant verses to answer the question, what would they be?

Please, please, give the BEST and only 3.

Thanks.
( borrowed this post with permission)
No we do not all agree.

A man can not redeem himself by any works of the LAW.
The works of Abraham are a different matter since they are works of FAITH.
 

throughfaith

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No we do not all agree.

A man can not redeem himself by any works of the LAW.
The works of Abraham are a different matter since they are works of FAITH.
So man can 'redeem 'himself through works ?