What are the qualifications of an apostle?

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Mar 17, 2021
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#21
Sounds like a sensuous experience. Glad you are enjoying.
What! Enjoying an interesting, stimulating church service and encouraged by a faith-building message? I'd rather have that than having to sit through an hour of total boredom in a cessationist church service that spouts liberalism and worldly wisdom. During the years I was an elder of a Presbyterian church, when we had visiting ministers who were old and dried up with one foot in grave preaching boring academic sermons, I used to sit behind a wider person than me so the preacher couldn't see me nodding off in the middle of it.

The desire to sleep during a boring cessationist church service is a sensuous experience too!
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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#22
What! Enjoying an interesting, stimulating church service and encouraged by a faith-building message? I'd rather have that than having to sit through an hour of total boredom in a cessationist church service that spouts liberalism and worldly wisdom. During the years I was an elder of a Presbyterian church, when we had visiting ministers who were old and dried up with one foot in grave preaching boring academic sermons, I used to sit behind a wider person than me so the preacher couldn't see me nodding off in the middle of it.

The desire to sleep during a boring cessationist church service is a sensuous experience too!
Presbyterianism is Calvinism, infant baptism, and is for church and state... It is 8th century Catholicism give or take a couple centuries.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#23
In the Charismatic movement we are hearing about the emergence of those who are calling themselves apostles. I have read some books that give what they are presenting as Scriptural evidence that there are apostles in the church today. It seems that when a guy is called an apostle, or advertises himself as one, people tend to take his teaching more seriously than a run-in-the mill Bible teacher. But there is a question: These apostles seem to be limited to the Charismatic movement, and generally not recognised by the wide range of Evangelical churches.

The Apostolic church of New Zealand, which is a Pentecostal denomination, claims to be rule by twelve apostles. The head rooster of the church, when challenged by a member retorted, "You can't speak to me like that. I'm an apostle!" So, what does that tell us?

To consider the question we need to examine what the Scriptural qualifications of an apostle really are. We know that the Apostles of Christ had strict qualifications that prevent anyone being able to claim that form of Apostleship today. They must have been personally appointed by the risen Christ, and that included Paul who was appointed by Christ on the Damascus Road. They had to be recognised by the full body of Christ, which was true in the 1st Century because the church was one with no divisions in it. They had to go into all the world and preach the Gospel of Christ, which they did. And their ministry had to be validated by signs and wonders. No one after the death of the Apostle John could have been appointed as an Apostle of Christ.

But there were apostles of the church, such as Barnabas and Silas, who were recognised as such by the church. Here were their qualifications:
1. They had to be appointed by the Holy Spirit: "Separate unto Me Barnabas and Paul for the ministry I have called them." The appointment came through a prophetic word that was attested by the whole group of prophets and teachers at Antioch. They all heard from the Holy Spirit at the one time and knew beyond doubt that Paul and Barnabas were called to the apostolic ministry. Later on Silas was also called. Paul would not have accepted Silas unless the Holy Spirit made it very clear.
2. They had to be accepted as apostles by the whole church. In today's church with all its division into different denominations, the ministry of apostle is well-nigh impossible because even if the ministry is accepted by one denominational group, it may not be recognised by others who are also part of the body of Christ. The senior pastor of the Apostolic Church may be the head of that church but he is certainly not an apostle because his ministry is not recognised even by other Pentecostal churches, let alone the Evangelicals. The same applies for those who call themselves "third wave" apostles. They are not recognised by the full body of Christ therefore they cannot be true apostles.
3. Scriptural apostles go into all the world with the Gospel of Christ. Many of these Charismatic "third wave" apostles do most of their ministry to church goers and not into the secular pagan world, and the bulk of their teaching is not the Gospel of Christ.
4. Scriptural apostleship must always be validated by signs and wonders. Therefore sick and disabled people must be healed on a regular basis as the outcome of their ministry of the Gospel of Christ. If they pray for a person in a wheelchair, that person comes out of the wheelchair and walks; a blind person receives their sight; a cancer patient's tumour disappears; arthritic joints are restored; heart failure is healed. If these things don't happen on a regular basis, then the person may be a good Bible teacher, but not an apostle.

Anyone can call himself an apostle, but the reality is that he has to be one according to the four qualifications that I have stated.

Actually, John Calvin at the start of his commentary of 1st Corinthians, gives an excellent description of who an apostle actually is.
Greetings Paulchristiansen,

Paul, in 2 Corinthians 12:12, states the true marks of an apostle:

"The true marks of an apostle—signs, wonders, and miracles—were performed among you with great perseverance."
 
Mar 17, 2021
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#24
Presbyterianism is Calvinism, infant baptism, and is for church and state... It is 8th century Catholicism give or take a couple centuries.
After spending 23 years at leadership level in a New Zealand Evangelical Presbyterian church I didn't witness one infant baptism, nor did I see any corroboration between church and state. But I did witness a couple of full-immersion baptisms, plenty of Christ-centred preaching, and good fellowship. I never heard one sermon on pre-destination or election. So I don't know what Presbyterian churches you have associated with.

But I have heard of many Methodist churches that welcome homosexuals, preach liberalism, deny the resurrection, and concentrate on self-improvement.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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#25
Greetings Paulchristiansen,

Paul, in 2 Corinthians 12:12, states the true marks of an apostle:

"The true marks of an apostle—signs, wonders, and miracles—were performed among you with great perseverance."
Very true. And when I see them happening in those who call themselves apostles, then I will believe that they are true apostles.
 

DeanM

Well-known member
May 4, 2021
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#26
After spending 23 years at leadership level in a New Zealand Evangelical Presbyterian church I didn't witness one infant baptism, nor did I see any corroboration between church and state. But I did witness a couple of full-immersion baptisms, plenty of Christ-centred preaching, and good fellowship. I never heard one sermon on pre-destination or election. So I don't know what Presbyterian churches you have associated with.

But I have heard of many Methodist churches that welcome homosexuals, preach liberalism, deny the resurrection, and concentrate on self-improvement.
I think the Methodists split into two, maybe more factions. Not sure what either preach. Might be wrong but I think the Episcopal church is allowing homosexual pastors now. All i remember for sure is it was one of the catholic lite denominations.
 

GodMyFortress

Active member
May 9, 2021
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#28
Presbyterianism is Calvinism, infant baptism, and is for church and state... It is 8th century Catholicism give or take a couple centuries.
With all due respect, Calvinism and Catholicism in any century could not be more different.
 

DeanM

Well-known member
May 4, 2021
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#29
No. The pope claims to be the " vicar of Christ". Like Borgia and many others.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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#30
When has the Pope ever claimed to be an apostle?
I have never heard of the Pope ever claiming to be an apostle. He does have the title of Vicar of Christ, and claims Apostolic Succession in terns of Peter being the first pope and so claims that he is Peter's successor as senior leader of the Church.
 

GodMyFortress

Active member
May 9, 2021
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#31
I have never heard of the Pope ever claiming to be an apostle. He does have the title of Vicar of Christ, and claims Apostolic Succession in terns of Peter being the first pope and so claims that he is Peter's successor as senior leader of the Church.
I totally agree. That’s why that comment jumped out at me.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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#32
After spending 23 years at leadership level in a New Zealand Evangelical Presbyterian church I didn't witness one infant baptism, nor did I see any corroboration between church and state. But I did witness a couple of full-immersion baptisms, plenty of Christ-centred preaching, and good fellowship. I never heard one sermon on pre-destination or election. So I don't know what Presbyterian churches you have associated with.

But I have heard of many Methodist churches that welcome homosexuals, preach liberalism, deny the resurrection, and concentrate on self-improvement.
New Zealand has no state religion, and church and state institutions are separate. So this is decided by the government of New Zealand. So every church in New Zealand has separation of church and state, even the Roman Church.

But,

The Church of Scotland (CoS; Scots: The Scots Kirk; Scottish Gaelic: Eaglais na h-Alba), also known by its Scots language name, the Kirk, is the national church of Scotland.[3] It is Presbyterian, having no head of faith or leadership group, and adheres to the Bible and Westminster Confession.

So the Westminster Confession of faith, which is central to presbyterianism, advocates for a church and state governance.
Now Scotland belongs to the United Kingdom, which has its own state religion.

If the presbyterian church is truly against church and state I think it should reject the Westminster Confession of faith.

But yes each church should be weighed on its own. I think you began the generalization of judging Cessationists.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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#33
I have never heard of the Pope ever claiming to be an apostle. He does have the title of Vicar of Christ, and claims Apostolic Succession in terns of Peter being the first pope and so claims that he is Peter's successor as senior leader of the Church.
There you go, you said it, "apostolic succession", what do you think that means? The successor of apostle.
He is successor of apostle peter. He is therefore apostle himself. They appoint the pope and justify their process of appointing the new pope by how Matthias was appointed in Acts 1.
 

GodMyFortress

Active member
May 9, 2021
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#34
There you go, you said it, "apostolic succession", what do you think that means? The successor of apostle.
He is successor of apostle peter. He is therefore apostle himself. They appoint the pope and justify their process of appointing the new pope by how Matthias was appointed in Acts 1.
It’s the episcopate that’s in succession, not the title of apostle.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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#35
I totally agree. That’s why that comment jumped out at me.
Was Elisha not successor to Elijah?
Was Joshua not successor to Moses?
Was Solomon not successor to David?

Solomon was successor and king.

Elisha and Joshua were succesors and prophets.

Pope claims to be successor to Peter and is thereby claiming to be apostle too. This is obvious.
 

GodMyFortress

Active member
May 9, 2021
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#36
Was Elisha not successor to Elijah?
Was Joshua not successor to Moses?
Was Solomon not successor to David?

Solomon was successor and king.

Elisha and Joshua were succesors and prophets.

Pope claims to be successor to Peter and is thereby claiming to be apostle too. This is obvious.
I answered your question just above.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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#37
It’s the episcopate that’s in succession, not the title of apostle.
tomayto, tomahto

From his historic base in Istanbul, Turkey, the 270th Patriarch of Constantinople claims to be the direct successor of the Apostle Andrew.
 

GodMyFortress

Active member
May 9, 2021
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#38
tomayto, tomahto

From his historic base in Istanbul, Turkey, the 270th Patriarch of Constantinople claims to be the direct successor of the Apostle Andrew.
He is, apostolic succession shows that.

I do have to say this is a new thing I haven’t heard before...The Catholic Church has never been bashful about giving out titles but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a non-Catholic wanting to give the Pope a title that Pope’s have never proclaimed for themselves before.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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#39
He is, apostolic succession shows that.

I do have to say this is a new thing I haven’t heard before...The Catholic Church has never been bashful about giving out titles but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a non-Catholic wanting to give the Pope a title that Pope’s have never proclaimed for themselves before.
What this would mean is that the Catholic Church is being deceitful. Can anyone imagine this?

The bible warns of false apostles. Therefore, where are they? Do any exist today?

2 Corinthians 11:1-6
Paul and the False Apostles
11 I hope you will put up with me in a little foolishness. Yes, please put up with me! 2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

5 I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.” 6 I may indeed be untrained as a speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.