What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[ewq1938]

Yes it is... it's in the PLURAL FORM of the verb ( basanisthēsontai "3rd person PLURAL )... which is ONE WORD in the Greek... not three, as I bolded in your post above.

OK, no problem. Let's go with that then.

That still addresses those three only. No one else is ever said to be tormented forever, right? You only assume, with no scriptural backing, that God would treat anyone else as severely despite tons of scriptures stating the opposite.

Then we have to deal with the possibility that "for ever" there isn't literal because God has used similar language for non-literal "for evers"

Plus, scripture promises the devil will be destroyed and not exist anymore so that supports Annihilation even for the Devil and if the Devil will be destroyed, then certainly the beast and FP would also be destroyed since they cannot exceed the wickedness of satan himself.

Lastly, in the eternity pain no longer exists which further rules out any possibility of people being in pain forever.

At best eternal torture has support for only the beast, FP and Devil to be tortured forever but even that ignores other scriptures mentioned already.

The case for Annihilation is immensely stronger and better supported.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Heb_2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Even the devil will be destroyed.

I think I already covered Hebrews 2:14 in the following posts (and in more, even before these):

-- Post #1213 (page 61) - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4688729

-- Post #1326 (page 67) - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4689914




Did you happen to read them??

He isn't going to understand this level of bible study.

Oh boy...

 

[ewq1938]

Did you happen to read them??

Your posts are generally unreadable so no. Plus you wrote to another person. Why not address the content of my post which clearly dismantles most if not all of eternal torture doctrine?

Start with the fact that pain will not exist in eternity. Your doctrine disagrees with scripture on that, while mine is in harmony.


Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

OK, no problem. Let's go with that then.

That still addresses those three only.

The question I was posing, though, recall, was: if the purpose [and function] of "the lake of fire" was to "incinerate" ppl into nothingness... then why are these two ppl who've been there for 1000 years already (not to mention, will be tormented day and night unto the ages of the ages, there, from the GWTj and onward according to the text)... why are these two people not "incinerated" already?

It's because "the lake of fire" is not "death" (which will itself be "rendered inoperative" at this GWTj point, after it and hell/hades DELIVERED UP the DEAD)... nor "annihilation"... or any such thing. That's obviously not the function / purpose of "the lake of fire".

No one else is ever said to be tormented forever, right? You only assume, with no scriptural backing, that God would treat anyone else as severely despite tons of scriptures stating the opposite.

I disagree that "tons of scriptures state the opposite"... and I've been plodding through this thread endeavoring to point out how the verses you and others use to "say" it says so, don't actually say that.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

He isn't going to understand this level of bible study.

What "level" is that?

 

[ewq1938]

The question I was posing, though, recall, was: if the purpose [and function] of "the lake of fire" was to "incinerate" ppl into nothingness... then why are these two ppl who've been there for 1000 years already (not to mention, will be tormented day and night unto the ages of the ages, there, from the GWTj and onward according to the text)... why are these two people not "incinerated" already?

They are. We already covered that plus you have sidestepped the fact that there is no pain in eternity. Are you just going to ignore that?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TDW said:
... why are these two people not "incinerated" already?

They are. We already covered that [...]

They aren't, and that was covered in:

-- Post #1375 (page 69) - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4691073

The text CLEARLY STATES "and THEY [PLURAL - V-FIP-3P] SHALL BE TORMENTED [future tense] day and night UNTO THE AGES OF THE AGES" [<--a phrase that NEVER means a "LIMITED" time-frame... in ALL 21x it is used! (TDW: readers see Post #230 on page 12, for those 21x listed)]

-- https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/20-10.htm

...and in Post #1380 (page 69) - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4691082

Yes it is... it's in the PLURAL FORM of the verb ( basanisthēsontai "3rd person PLURAL )... which is ONE WORD in the Greek... not three, as I bolded in your post above.

-- " basanisthēsontai " translates to "THEY shall be tormented" (PLURAL persons... not just a singular one)

-- https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/20-10.htm

The text itself clearly states this.

 

[Duckybill]

No games... But ok let's go this route so that I'm not repeating old posts.

Would you agree that the fulfillment of the above passage occurs at Revelation 20:12-15, after your passage quoted below?

If you agree with my first question, who are the "they" in Revelation 20:10 if we're sticking with the bible?

Well, it's for sure they are all heading to the same place, the everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[cv5]

When eternal is used in relation to God, Who is Himself eternally Self existent, do you not think it prudent to consider the context and allow His eternality to be something quite different than how the same word is used in relation to men? For it is obvious in many verses (such as those on the panel I provided in the post preceding yours) that forever in those verse does not mean without end. Look again:

"Forever"

With that being said let me ask you this: What exactly do you preach to unbelievers in terms of final judgment? Don't worry about it the worst thing that will happen is that you are going to die once, maybe twice? Party on Garth?

I see no flippant casual message like that in terms of man's ultimate fate post judgment anywhere in the NT. On the contrary it is always solemn, and frighteningly eternal in nature. And a precise mirror image of eternal life in Christ......eternal death without Christ.

 

[cv5]

He quoted phrases and then questioned the member on the full phrase, not the bolded adjective. Clearly he doesn't mind "done unto him" what he's "doing unto others", as that's the tenet we're all held to. So he needs to be accurate else he makes himself look foolish

Romans 1:22
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

I typically seek peace with all men regardless of the difference in views and doctrine, being gracious as we're commanded to do (as I'm sure you've witnessed on here over the years)...but I don't take kindly to trolls and bullies. Ad Hominem attacks etc. Not here. Not professing what we claim to.

And some people don't take kindly to the unlearned and ignorant. Thank God that TDW has the patience of a Saint with us. A lesser soul would have thrown us all under the bus by now.

I hope everyone here can agree that superior due diligence and scholarship comes up with all the right answers.

 

[cv5]

Yeah it is but the everlasting punishment is not torture. It's death. The wicked get everlasting death as a punishment, not life in torture. Only the righteous get eternal life.


Wicked= everlasting death as punishment.
Righteous= eternal life as reward.

The wicked DO NOT get to live forever. They will die and get burned up into nothingness.

Scripture makes clear that men are cast or thrown into the same repository as fallen angels and the devil. A place prepared by God for them. A place where they will be tortured (G928 basanizo). A place called Gehenna fire, the lake of fire.

Compare Matt 8:29 (spoken by demons who are aware of their eternal judgement of torture) with
Rev 9:5 (locusts from the pit torturing men....but for only five months).

The phrase that links these two discrete groups of fallen angels and men all together
is Matt 25:41 "into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels".

There are a ton of other Scriptures of course. But when you can nail down doctrine with three or four Scriptures then you can take it to the bank. Especially when it is founded upon the words of Jesus Himself.

Yes some Biblical doctrines are subtle.......but not this one. Scripturally annihilationism does not have a leg to stand on.

 

[cv5]

Play your games. I'll stick with the Bible.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Yes. Matthew 25:41 ties it all together. The detractors are looking for wiggle room but in this case there is none of it.

 

[cv5]

Col 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus

Warning every man of what? That judgement for sin = taking a nap and never waking up?

 

[Laura798]

The question I was posing, though, recall, was: if the purpose [and function] of "the lake of fire" was to "incinerate" ppl into nothingness... then why are these two ppl who've been there for 1000 years already (not to mention, will be tormented day and night unto the ages of the ages, there, from the GWTj and onward according to the text)... why are these two people not "incinerated" already?

It's because "the lake of fire" is not "death" (which will itself be "rendered inoperative" at this GWTj point, after it and hell/hades DELIVERED UP the DEAD)... nor "annihilation"... or any such thing. That's obviously not the function / purpose of "the lake of fire".




I disagree that "tons of scriptures state the opposite"... and I've been plodding through this thread endeavoring to point out how the verses you and others use to "say" it says so, don't actually say that.

That is impossible Divine Watermark--I cannot believe that you saw all the verses and still hold on to the pagan myth of eternal conscious torment--according to scriptures if we have the Holy Spirit in us He reveals all truth. Of course we must study God's Word for ourselves -- not believe simply what we've been taught---to discover that truth.

Th bible says in plain, simple language the punishment of sin is death--if you do not believe that then you do not believe Christ paid the penalty for our sin--the foundational truth of the gospel. You say I am ungracious because I 'tongue in cheek' say I wonder if you have access to the Holy Scriptures, but you do far worse--you deny that Christ paid the penalty by dying in our place and worst of all you attribute evil to God.

"Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."--John 9:41

 

[cv5]

That is impossible Divine Watermark--I cannot believe that you saw all the verses and still hold on to the pagan myth of eternal conscious torment--according to scriptures if we have the Holy Spirit in us He reveals all truth. Of course we must study God's Word for ourselves -- not believe simply what we've been taught---to discover that truth.

Th bible says in plain, simple language the punishment of sin is death--if you do not believe that then you do not believe Christ paid the penalty for our sin--the foundational truth of the gospel. You say I am ungracious because I 'tongue in cheek' say I wonder if you have access to the Holy Scriptures, but you do far worse--you deny that Christ paid the penalty by dying in our place and worst of all you attribute evil to God.

"Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."--John 9:41

Come to think of it I cannot recall any legitimate Church historically or today that maintains a doctrine of Annihilationism. It is much embraced by the cults though.

Anybody care to chime in?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Come to think of it I cannot recall any legitimate Church historically or today that maintains a doctrine of Annihilationism. It is much embraced by the cults though.

Anybody care to chime in?

I brought this fact up previously, a couple of times. We know annihilationism in varuous forms is a cult doctrine.
It was brushed under the rug as I expect it will be again.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I brought this fact up previously, a couple of times. We know annihilationism in varuous forms is a cult doctrine.
It was brushed under the rug as I expect it will be again.

Spelling! varuous various

 

[Runningman]

I think I already covered Hebrews 2:14 in the following posts (and in more, even before these):

-- Post #1213 (page 61) - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4688729

-- Post #1326 (page 67) - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4689914




Did you happen to read them??








Oh boy...

Did you read my replies? I made a great case as to why your interpretation of "destroyed" meaning "annulled" in Hebrews 2:14 is not possible.

 

[Runningman]

Come to think of it I cannot recall any legitimate Church historically or today that maintains a doctrine of Annihilationism. It is much embraced by the cults though.

Anybody care to chime in?

I believed in eternal torment up until sometime this year. Know what changed my mind to annihilationism? I studied the Bible and allowed the literal language of the scriptures to guide me. That's it. What got me believing in eternal torment was I took for granted the Bible teaches it. I didn't study what hell really is until this year.

I also want to address more of the content of your post.

What you used is called a strawman argument. "Those people believe in annihilation and some cults also believe in annihilation therefore they're illegitimate." It also uses the "causation equals correlation" logical fallacy. I'm basically pointing out that you aren't using sound reasoning.

Furthermore, you never actually debunked annihilationism. The plain language of the scriptures says that unbelievers perish and are destroyed. Why can't you accept that?

 

[JTB]

Assuming annihilation is true, what do you say to believers who would choose that over 'heaven'?