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The proving of your faith is more precious than gold. (I think that was peter, NT).
It is of the greatest gain and no treasure on earth can surpass it!
But it feels very awful and hard to be in this proving and discipline sometimes.
Once He lets us see some of the good afterwards, it is easier to be firm the next time.
It is of the greatest gain and no treasure on earth can surpass it!
But it feels very awful and hard to be in this proving and discipline sometimes.
Once He lets us see some of the good afterwards, it is easier to be firm the next time.
Yep....definitely in the OT. Things are "new" in the New Covenant. We can have our minds renewed to the truth of these scriptures below because we are in Christ.
John 4:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
John 6:35 (NASB)
[SUP]35 [/SUP] Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
A hard time of a drought
I have been wondering about people who declare they feel God has created a hard
ceiling to their prayers. This has continued for years, though they appear to be
people of faith.
This has not been my experience, rather when I feel lost in the Lord I search Him
out in His word, in my heart, in praise, in things I do and aspire to.
I hold when peace and the seal leave you, there is always a reason in your life,
because the Lord came with a promise of continual communion. Now one could
say there is no definite promise of this, but the whole gospel is our sin derives
from a lack of communion and fellowship with Him and He will never leave us, so
we must have left Him.
Why did Adam fall, because He did not commune with God but chose his own
path.
Why did Israel fall, because they chose Kings rather than have the King of Kings
as their leader.
Why do we fall, because we fail to obey and give our hearts to our King.
I have been wondering about people who declare they feel God has created a hard
ceiling to their prayers. This has continued for years, though they appear to be
people of faith.
This has not been my experience, rather when I feel lost in the Lord I search Him
out in His word, in my heart, in praise, in things I do and aspire to.
I hold when peace and the seal leave you, there is always a reason in your life,
because the Lord came with a promise of continual communion. Now one could
say there is no definite promise of this, but the whole gospel is our sin derives
from a lack of communion and fellowship with Him and He will never leave us, so
we must have left Him.
Why did Adam fall, because He did not commune with God but chose his own
path.
Why did Israel fall, because they chose Kings rather than have the King of Kings
as their leader.
Why do we fall, because we fail to obey and give our hearts to our King.
Are you saying that everything in the OT or in the old covenant is over and done with? If Christ is God and the OT tells of God, how can that be?
Christ was there at creation. From the first, atonement was given by the grace of God and the symbolism of the blood of Christ. It was only the blood of bulls and goats when Hebrews sacrificed to copy the pagans not in repentance.
If you only have the new, if you have not learned of God through the old, then you cannot know God. It means you have created a God that is not real but a new one.
The epistles refer back to the "old" in every book, so the old you repudiate is incorporated in the real new. You are taking out a third of the NT.
What Christ did at His crucifixion is the very heart of all scripture. The OT tells us about it. It is new, but it takes understanding of the old that tells of it to understand the new. The old isn't wiped out at all, it is the foundation of the new.
Christ was there at creation. From the first, atonement was given by the grace of God and the symbolism of the blood of Christ. It was only the blood of bulls and goats when Hebrews sacrificed to copy the pagans not in repentance.
If you only have the new, if you have not learned of God through the old, then you cannot know God. It means you have created a God that is not real but a new one.
The epistles refer back to the "old" in every book, so the old you repudiate is incorporated in the real new. You are taking out a third of the NT.
What Christ did at His crucifixion is the very heart of all scripture. The OT tells us about it. It is new, but it takes understanding of the old that tells of it to understand the new. The old isn't wiped out at all, it is the foundation of the new.
B
Well scripture doesn't say God did leave him, so the opposite is true..
Some may think that Matthew 27:46 implys that God left him but this is a poor interpretation, IMO this verse should say my God, My God, why have you allowed this upon me, in the garden that Jesus was praying if it be your will God let this pass from me yet not my will but your will be done.. Though the beatings and flogging etc., The pain of it all Took a toll the carnal mind and He also felt the weight of the worlds sin on his shoulders as well...
Some may think that Matthew 27:46 implys that God left him but this is a poor interpretation, IMO this verse should say my God, My God, why have you allowed this upon me, in the garden that Jesus was praying if it be your will God let this pass from me yet not my will but your will be done.. Though the beatings and flogging etc., The pain of it all Took a toll the carnal mind and He also felt the weight of the worlds sin on his shoulders as well...
B
Jesus seems to have lived every moment totally immersed in God's Divine Presence, and according to the Gospels seems to have been fully aware of the entire plot that would eventually lead to his crucifixion. He could have run away before the soldiers came to get him, but he apparently chose not to resist, and went along with the whole plan without hesitation or self-pity.
So, perhaps the King James translation has missed the point of this quotation. Could there be an alternative translation that offers some new insight into this remarkable situation?
Since translation is more of an art than a science, it is often useful to consider other translations and to also look at the ancient roots of the words. Here are two translations from Aramaic, which was probably the language that Jesus spoke:
And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice and said, Eli, Eli, lmana shabachthani! which means, My God, my God, for this I was kept!
Matthew 27:46, translated by George Lamsa
And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice and said, "God, God, why have you spared me?"
Matthew 27:46, translated by LWM
So, perhaps the King James translation has missed the point of this quotation. Could there be an alternative translation that offers some new insight into this remarkable situation?
Since translation is more of an art than a science, it is often useful to consider other translations and to also look at the ancient roots of the words. Here are two translations from Aramaic, which was probably the language that Jesus spoke:
And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice and said, Eli, Eli, lmana shabachthani! which means, My God, my God, for this I was kept!
Matthew 27:46, translated by George Lamsa
And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice and said, "God, God, why have you spared me?"
Matthew 27:46, translated by LWM
Jesus was quoting Psalm 22 as He was on the cross.
Psalm 22 is a prophecy of Jesus' crucifixion. The rejection of the Messiah by the people (v.6), the insults they hurled at Him on the cross (vv.7-8 - compare with Matt.27:38-43), the pain of the crucifixion (vv.14-15), the piercing of His hands and feet (v.16), the dividing up of His clothing by lot (v.18) are just some of the more obvious parallels this Psalm prophesies. Jesus knew exactly what was going to happen to Him because He understood this Psalm and how it applied to His death on our behalf (cf. Matt.20:18-19). By quoting Psalm 22, our Lord makes this clear, and makes it clear to all who would later hear these words of His that He was well aware that He would have to die on our behalf in order to save us - for this reason He came into the world (Jn.3:16-17).
I found that explanation here: 'Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani': Why does Christ quote Psalm 22 from the cross? - Economy, History and Salvation - Monachos.net Discussion Community
Psalm 22 is a prophecy of Jesus' crucifixion. The rejection of the Messiah by the people (v.6), the insults they hurled at Him on the cross (vv.7-8 - compare with Matt.27:38-43), the pain of the crucifixion (vv.14-15), the piercing of His hands and feet (v.16), the dividing up of His clothing by lot (v.18) are just some of the more obvious parallels this Psalm prophesies. Jesus knew exactly what was going to happen to Him because He understood this Psalm and how it applied to His death on our behalf (cf. Matt.20:18-19). By quoting Psalm 22, our Lord makes this clear, and makes it clear to all who would later hear these words of His that He was well aware that He would have to die on our behalf in order to save us - for this reason He came into the world (Jn.3:16-17).
I found that explanation here: 'Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani': Why does Christ quote Psalm 22 from the cross? - Economy, History and Salvation - Monachos.net Discussion Community
Some men in the OT walked with God too though. There's no way to read what they wrote and believe walking with God and having their minds renewed to think like God was impossible to them. That man who wrote the verse of the dry land with no water was definitely missing a sense of Gods' presence! It's all very curious sometimes. I love a man of mystery.
It's all very curious sometimes. I love a man of mystery.
Amen! The Old Covenant was a mere shadow of the new which is all fulfilled in Christ in some form or other. We don't use Christ to go back to the Old Covenant for life and living. We read the Old to see Jesus in the scriptures and we now live by Him.
If we get this wrong - we end up with a mixed gospel that nullifies the grace of Christ from operating in our lives. Then we think that God for sure is hiding Himself from us like He did in the Old Covenant.
We live in the New Covenant built upon better promises of which the Blood of Jesus speaks of better things....
B
That is purely a theory that he was quoting from Psalm 22...
controversial and strikingly different from some bible Versions, seem to be much more in accord with the principles and ministry of Jesus' life, since Jesus taught us to rise above the narrow confines of self-centeredness and self-pity in order that we may live every moment of our lives loving God and loving one another.
For some further insight into interpreting the words of Matthew, here is a brief summary of a rather lengthy article by Rev. Wayne Clapp who suggests that either the Greek or the Aramaic could be interpreted in an alternative manner:
There is probably no scripture more misunderstood than Jesus’ cry from the cross, "My God. My God. Why hast thou forsaken me?" Did Jesus Christ really utter these words? Would Jesus have accused his heavenly Father of such an act of desertion? Did God really abandon His only begotten son as he was dying on the cross?
The difficulty with Matthew 26:47 is due to an error in translation. "Forsaken" is the wrong choice for the translation in this verse.
"Eli" means "my God." Lama, or lemana means "why" or "for what purpose" and always introduces a question. It occurs 53 times in the Aramaic-English Interlinear New Testament (#1584) and it is translated "why" 45 times, "what" 5 times, and "for what purpose" 3 times. "Sabachthani" comes from sebaq meaning to leave, forgive, allow, reserve, or spare.
The Greek word translated forsaken, greek forsaken can mean to leave in the sense of forsaking and abandoning, or to leave in the sense of sparing or allowing to remain. The context determines the meaning.
controversial and strikingly different from some bible Versions, seem to be much more in accord with the principles and ministry of Jesus' life, since Jesus taught us to rise above the narrow confines of self-centeredness and self-pity in order that we may live every moment of our lives loving God and loving one another.
For some further insight into interpreting the words of Matthew, here is a brief summary of a rather lengthy article by Rev. Wayne Clapp who suggests that either the Greek or the Aramaic could be interpreted in an alternative manner:
There is probably no scripture more misunderstood than Jesus’ cry from the cross, "My God. My God. Why hast thou forsaken me?" Did Jesus Christ really utter these words? Would Jesus have accused his heavenly Father of such an act of desertion? Did God really abandon His only begotten son as he was dying on the cross?
The difficulty with Matthew 26:47 is due to an error in translation. "Forsaken" is the wrong choice for the translation in this verse.
"Eli" means "my God." Lama, or lemana means "why" or "for what purpose" and always introduces a question. It occurs 53 times in the Aramaic-English Interlinear New Testament (#1584) and it is translated "why" 45 times, "what" 5 times, and "for what purpose" 3 times. "Sabachthani" comes from sebaq meaning to leave, forgive, allow, reserve, or spare.
The Greek word translated forsaken, greek forsaken can mean to leave in the sense of forsaking and abandoning, or to leave in the sense of sparing or allowing to remain. The context determines the meaning.
Some men in the OT walked with God too though. There's no way to read what they wrote and believe walking with God and having their minds renewed to think like God was impossible to them. That man who wrote the verse of the dry land with no water was definitely missing a sense of Gods' presence! It's all very curious sometimes. I love a man of mystery.
It's all very curious sometimes. I love a man of mystery.
Yes....they certainly were missing the presence of God at certain times in the OT. The Holy Spirit in the New Covenant is with us forever Jesus said in John 14:16.
There is definitely a legitimate response to wanting to know Him more. ...
The mystery of the richness of the glory of Christ being in us is one worth looking into.
Colossians 1:27 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
No question that there is a lot of mystery still to us in it all, and especially in some aspects of the crucifixion.
But here is how I have thought about it.
You know how God said they would die the day they ate the fruit? They didn't. They lived for hundreds of years still. So this death was not referring to physical death. Because He said: the day you eat of it you will die, which didn't happen.
And we know that we will all die physically, so it wasn't physical death Jesus came to save us from or else He failed partly, which we know can't be. So if He died so we wouldn't have to, why do we still all die? So the death He had to experience so we wouldn't have to pay, that is something other than physical death. I think He faced feeling something even worse than physical death.
And though men will agonize over their coming death who don't know they step into eternal life upon death, I have never heard of the thought of it causing blood to leak out of their eyes. This is something more than we can comprehend and we never will because we never have to experience it. Maybe it will always be some mystery to us, because He bore it for us and we won't experience it.
Those are my thoughts on it.
But here is how I have thought about it.
You know how God said they would die the day they ate the fruit? They didn't. They lived for hundreds of years still. So this death was not referring to physical death. Because He said: the day you eat of it you will die, which didn't happen.
And we know that we will all die physically, so it wasn't physical death Jesus came to save us from or else He failed partly, which we know can't be. So if He died so we wouldn't have to, why do we still all die? So the death He had to experience so we wouldn't have to pay, that is something other than physical death. I think He faced feeling something even worse than physical death.
And though men will agonize over their coming death who don't know they step into eternal life upon death, I have never heard of the thought of it causing blood to leak out of their eyes. This is something more than we can comprehend and we never will because we never have to experience it. Maybe it will always be some mystery to us, because He bore it for us and we won't experience it.
Those are my thoughts on it.
B
For those psalm 22 believers that God had forsaken him well just read alittle more into it and see that the song isn't about abandonment.
Psalm22:19~21
But You, O LORD, be not far off;
O You my help, hasten to my assistance.
20Deliver my soul from the sword,
My only life from the power of the dog.
21Save me from the lion’s mouth;
From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.
Psalm22:19~21
But You, O LORD, be not far off;
O You my help, hasten to my assistance.
20Deliver my soul from the sword,
My only life from the power of the dog.
21Save me from the lion’s mouth;
From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.
Jesus directly quotes Psalm 22. Twelve prophecies of the Messiah
in this Psalm were fulfilled by Jesus Christ, the spotless
Lamb of God Who took away the sin of the world.
Galatians 3:13 says that Jesus became a curse, and suffered under the curse of the Father while bearing our sin, that we might be freed from the curse and given the blessing of Abraham, eternal life through the Holy Spirit. Do you not think He could have felt forsaken as the penalty for sin fell upon Him, the wrath of God satisfied through the propitiatory sacrifice of His righteous blood?
Jesus Christ was dried out in intense suffering, and was crushed like a worm (v6) under the wrath of God in order to extract the precious bright red substance from Him, His sinless blood, which would be applied to men as a precious dye to cover their sin.
Vs 7-8 detail the intense ridicule and humility He suffered on the Cross.
This was literally fulfilled in Matthew 27:39-44.
Vs 9-10 Jesus Christ is the only one who could say this rightfully.
He was conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary, born a
sinless child, always righteous, always perfect, always trusting
in God the Father in perfect obedience.
All 12 are detailed here: Messianic prophecies fulfilled in Psalm 22 - The Urbans in Mexico
in this Psalm were fulfilled by Jesus Christ, the spotless
Lamb of God Who took away the sin of the world.
Galatians 3:13 says that Jesus became a curse, and suffered under the curse of the Father while bearing our sin, that we might be freed from the curse and given the blessing of Abraham, eternal life through the Holy Spirit. Do you not think He could have felt forsaken as the penalty for sin fell upon Him, the wrath of God satisfied through the propitiatory sacrifice of His righteous blood?
Jesus Christ was dried out in intense suffering, and was crushed like a worm (v6) under the wrath of God in order to extract the precious bright red substance from Him, His sinless blood, which would be applied to men as a precious dye to cover their sin.
Vs 7-8 detail the intense ridicule and humility He suffered on the Cross.
This was literally fulfilled in Matthew 27:39-44.
Vs 9-10 Jesus Christ is the only one who could say this rightfully.
He was conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary, born a
sinless child, always righteous, always perfect, always trusting
in God the Father in perfect obedience.
All 12 are detailed here: Messianic prophecies fulfilled in Psalm 22 - The Urbans in Mexico
Amen! The Old Covenant was a mere shadow of the new which is all fulfilled in Christ in some form or other. We don't use Christ to go back to the Old Covenant for life and living. We read the Old to see Jesus in the scriptures and we now live by Him.
If we get this wrong - we end up with a mixed gospel that nullifies the grace of Christ from operating in our lives. Then we think that God for sure is hiding Himself from us like He did in the Old Covenant.
We live in the New Covenant built upon better promises of which the Blood of Jesus speaks of better things....
If we get this wrong - we end up with a mixed gospel that nullifies the grace of Christ from operating in our lives. Then we think that God for sure is hiding Himself from us like He did in the Old Covenant.
We live in the New Covenant built upon better promises of which the Blood of Jesus speaks of better things....
B
Well you have some great insight, there is iron in your words
I've never heard of the bleeding from the eyes thing either, but I do know that the early churches the so called Christians were very discieving at times biulding their fake statues that bled from the eyes, weeping statues so they are called, all hoaxes to try and fool the people Into thinking the church had the power..
I've never heard of the bleeding from the eyes thing either, but I do know that the early churches the so called Christians were very discieving at times biulding their fake statues that bled from the eyes, weeping statues so they are called, all hoaxes to try and fool the people Into thinking the church had the power..
B
It sometimes seems as if...like you know how the building of the temple had to be very meticulous because it was a copy of the spiritual temple - a copy of the one in heaven? Every little pomegranate represents something in the temple in heaven, every measurement represents something even though we don't know what all the time. Well, it seems this is so with everything created, not just the temple. Does that make sense? Have you ever felt that? That all we see and every thing created is representing something ( is a shadow). Like even physical death is a shadow of something. Though I walk through the valley of...the shadow of death. Physical death is the shadow or representation of the true and eternal death. Don't know if I've made sense here.
Like the biulding of a Ark, a boat will not float unless the keel is sound and so on, it starts with a solid foundation...