What Changed?

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JohnRH

JohnRH

Junior Member
#82
Mar 5, 2018
683
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#82
Rufus said:
But you did say:



So...the written code of the law wasn't given until Sinai where Moses received it. This logically means all men who lived prior to Sinai are now in heaven since they were not imputed Adam's sin.
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I didn't say the written code of the law.
 
BillyBob

BillyBob

Active member
#83
Dec 20, 2023
407
176
43
Texas
#83
PaulThomson said:
You start by assuming your reader is "a child of God."

Then you add a bunch more assumptions"
1. ALL people are conceived in sin.
2. ALL children are born children of wrath.
3. ALL are born unfit for any saving good.
4. ALL are born inclined to evil.
5. ALL are born dead in their sins.
6. ALL are born slaves to sin.

These assumptions are not stated in the Bible. What would be the point of anyone being willing to assume them in order to respond to this thread?
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For someone who who was at first reluctant to respond to this thread, I see that you have once again hijacked a topic to further promote you bruised apple theology. Great move on your part!:rolleyes:
 
Eli1

Eli1

Well-known member
#84
Apr 5, 2022
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#84
BillyBob said:
For someone who who was at first reluctant to respond to this thread, I see that you have once again hijacked a topic to further promote you bruised apple theology. Great move on your part!:rolleyes:
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He's also a great person to have at a party. :D
When the party is quiet then Call Paul!
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#85
Feb 17, 2024
3,022
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#85
PaulThomson said:
Are you are referring only to 1 Cor. 2:14?

Psuchikos probably means air-breathing. Pneumatikos probably means spirit-breathing.

All air-breathing people became subject to physical disease and physical death as a result of Adam's sin. No person's mind, heart and will are affected by Adam's sin, but each person's mind, heart and will become corrupted through their own fear of death and their own failure to trust God.

Hebrews 2:15 KJV — And deliver them who in fear of death, through all of the [struggle?] to live, were subject to bondage.
Genesis 4:7 KJV — If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Heb. 4:9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11¶Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
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But why do people fear death? Don't you know that the fear of death itself is a moral-spiritual problem? Have you never read that perfect love drives away all fear (1Jn 4:18)? And moreover, the reason people fear death is because they know they are GUILTY of sin! Your answer does not solve man's spiritual problem. In fact, it makes it worse; for no one comes into this world loving God. And whoever doesn't love Him doesn't know Him (1Jn 4:8). And how can anyone truly trust anyone he doesn't know? Man is inherently wicked -- from the crown of his head to the bottom of the soles of his feet. There is no spiritual soundness in man.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#91
Oct 29, 2023
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#91
Rufus said:
And I keep explaining to you that your analogy fails because you're comparing the gala apple with other apples -- with all apples being mankind. The only way your analogy could work is if God himself is also an apple. So...this is what you believe then...that God is just another apple in his created gala bunch of mankind? Your analogy needs to account for where God fits in. After all, Jesus clearly contrasted mankind ("no one") with God. "Why do you call me good? NO ONE (no man -- no human "APPLE") is good . Only God alone is good. Jesus clearly didn't teach that mankind isn't as good as God -- which would be a relative statement. Jesus's statement is absolute! For no one at all is good, save for God alone! No man can hold a candle to God's infinite goodness!

And when Jesus often referred to his contemporaries as "this evil generation", how does that square with your ill-conceived analogy? Was Jesus teaching that not everyone is equally as evil?

Try taking your own medicine, Mr. Wanna-Be-Physician: Heal yourself by actually thinking for yourself by shoving aside your unbiblical presuppositions.
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God is good. God made us in His image, and declared us very good. For you to argue that we cannot compare our goodness to God's goodness because there is no overlap between deity and humanity is stupid. Jesus is an obvious overlap between deity and humanity. Man being created in God's image and very good, obviously implies an overlap between deity and mankind in degrees of goodness.

You are using the fallacy of "special pleading" to escape accepting these biblical truths, because they do damage to the idol of your theological systematic.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#92
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
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#92
Rufus said:
Totally wrong. Only if Paul wasn't a human being could that be said. What he said for himself applies to all men! And it harmonizes with the rest of the bible. Who born of woman can be clean (Job 14:1-4)? There is absolutely no moral-spiritual soundness in man (Isa 1:5-6).
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Job was rebuked by God for darkening counsel without knowledge. You cannot reasonably assume that every word from Job's mouth was Holy Spirit inspired truth.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#93
Oct 29, 2023
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#93
Rufus said:
This last paragraph is patently false. The Unregenerate naturally hate God, hate his Son, despise spiritual knowledge, hate spiritual wisdom, hate truth, love the darkness, love themselves, love the world, love pleasures of this life, love money, etc. Pure wishful thinking on your part. No one does good, no not one! And the reason for this is easy to understand: The unregenerate live in sin 24/7, therefore, whatever "good" we may think they do is still corrupted by their hatred for God and mistrust of him, which further means they do nothing for God's glory!
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You have a cynical theology that despises mankind who is made in God's image. You seem to refuse to see anything of that divine image and goodness in anyone but yourself and your self-appointed unconditionally elected clique. God made man in His image and very good. Man did not become, and is not totally depraved. The Bible is written in human language for humans to understand. In common parlance "Not one is good" does not mean "Not one contains any good". It is only in the ivory Calvinist tower you are ensconced in that "Not one is good" means "Not one contains any good."
Normal people don't ascribe to words and phrases the same meanings as your theology does.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#94
Oct 29, 2023
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#94
BillyBob said:
For someone who who was at first reluctant to respond to this thread, I see that you have once again hijacked a topic to further promote you bruised apple theology. Great move on your part!:rolleyes:
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Are you going to make some attempt at explaining why my "no good apples but one" analogy does not adequately account for the meaning of Jesus words in a way that does not entail total depravity? Or are you settling for merely throwing in the logical fallacies of appeal to the stone and loaded labelling ?
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#95
Oct 29, 2023
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#95
BillyBob said:
It seems to me that the main difference between reformed and non-reformed is:

The non-reformed person gives glory to creation.
The reformed person gives glory to the creator.

Opps, I forgot - man only comes into the world as a bruised apple! I keep forgetting this because I haven't yet seen it presented in scripture. But I'm still looking!

God will not be robed of His glory!
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You are obviously not paying attention. Man comes into the world as a good apple. He gets initially bruised when impacted by the world and the devil.
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#96
Feb 17, 2024
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#96
PaulThomson said:
You are obviously not paying attention. Man comes into the world as a good apple. He gets initially bruised when impacted by the world and the devil.
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If man's nature is good then explain to us why is it that man cannot not sin, and how did the world (filled with good apples) become evil (implied by your statement above)?
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#97
Feb 17, 2024
3,022
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#97
PaulThomson said:
You have a cynical theology that despises mankind who is made in God's image. You seem to refuse to see anything of that divine image and goodness in anyone but yourself and your self-appointed unconditionally elected clique. God made man in His image and very good. Man did not become, and is not totally depraved. The Bible is written in human language for humans to understand. In common parlance "Not one is good" does not mean "Not one contains any good". It is only in the ivory Calvinist tower you are ensconced in that "Not one is good" means "Not one contains any good."
Normal people don't ascribe to words and phrases the same meanings as your theology does.
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I don't despise mankind. But God despises sinners (a subject for another time). Mankind became so broken after the Fall that God had to condescend to become one of us in order to fix us, and it cost him an exceedingly high price.

The human heart is desperately sick and deceitful above all things -- so much so that no one can truly understand it (Jer 17:9). But you have such a high view of yourself and your fellow man -- you have it all figured out, don't you? If we're such good apples, explain to me how the thoughts and intentions of the hearts of man became evil continually (Gen 6:5) -- to the point where God exterminated virtually all men.
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#98
Feb 17, 2024
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#98
PaulThomson said:
Job was rebuked by God for darkening counsel without knowledge. You cannot reasonably assume that every word from Job's mouth was Holy Spirit inspired truth.
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Oh but I can whenever a word that he spoke harmonizes with the rest of God's Word. Show me how Job 14, etc. contradict other portions of scripture.
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#99
Feb 17, 2024
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#99
PaulThomson said:
Are you going to make some attempt at explaining why my "no good apples but one" analogy does not adequately account for the meaning of Jesus words in a way that does not entail total depravity? Or are you settling for merely throwing in the logical fallacies of appeal to the stone and loaded labelling ?
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I have explained it many times. Jesus clearly said that no human being on the planet is good. And this immediately implies that all human beings are evil. In the bible there is no middle ground between Good and Evil or Good and Bad or Good and Wicked. (The operative phrase here is "in the bible".) And to prove this, all we have to do is turn to all the texts in the gospels wherein Jesus referred to his contemporaries as being "this evil generation". He never called his fellow Jews "good"
 
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