What divides the Book of Daniel into 2

[kenisyes]

it will be interesting to see this, Ken.
the timeline on Daniel was forced also.
to make the Dome of the Rock the A.O.D.
unless our friend reads and writes fluently in the original languages, there was 'help' from Talmudic rabbis.
also: daniel's 70th week magically became a different kind of week than the other 69.

we see that in dispenSensationalism of all stripes.

but of course: i know you are always objective and will discern on your own.
much close attention is needed to see how it was done.

His theory as posted here does not mention a timeline for Daniel; chiasm is just a way to determine the outline of the material, controlling what was presented where on the original written scroll. Last summer I caught a youtube lecture on chiasm in Judges. When you can prove it, it's really nice, as it helps find the central focus statement of a section of a book. He posted last spring that no one had refuted the "dome of the rock theory" Scripturally or mathematically; perhaps that is what you are referring to. I refuted the math some weeks back, as I recall, demonstrating an inconsistency in the presence or omission of the year 0, as needed, and a few other things I noted; you followed that closely if I recall. I did not join CC until Sept.

I tried after I answered this, and was unable to think of any Greek written work that seemed to use chiasm, but I am a neophyte at using the technique. I join you in awaiting further exposition.

 

[kenisyes]

I did some research.
Introduction; What is a chiasm? Definition and explanation of the chiastic structure.
List of some in the bible: CHIASTIC STRUCTURING
and follow the links
An example of a forced chiasm (picking only the verses to make it work). Anyone can get any pattern from the bible if you can leave out a thousand times as many verses as you pick: The chiastic literary structure of the whole Bible

 

[Therapon]

Chiasm's are cool, have you found the one in the creation story yet? What does a chiasm tell us, is it there to preserve integrity of the text for example, or is it a model of life, up the mountain, then back down the same way in reverse, etc.? EILEEN NEELIE

I believe chiasms are God's signature. Genesis opens with one and Revelation closes with one, though the one in Revelation is only apparent in the KJV. There is a good book on bifids and chiasms in the Old Testament by Dr.David A Dorsey, The Literary Structure of the Old Testament, ISBN 0-8010-2187-1. If I remember correctly, I got my copy from Amazon.com

 

[Therapon]

Sorry about the trouble wioth the formatting, it was right in the original. If you can't figure it out, please let me know I'll try again.

 

[Therapon]

I did some research.
Introduction; What is a chiasm? Definition and explanation of the chiastic structure.
List of some in the bible: CHIASTIC STRUCTURING
and follow the links
An example of a forced chiasm (picking only the verses to make it work). Anyone can get any pattern from the bible if you can leave out a thousand times as many verses as you pick: The chiastic literary structure of the whole Bible

It amazes me how some people dispute disciplines that many good Bible believing conservative theologians recognize as boiler-plate.

 

[Therapon]

I did some research.
Introduction; What is a chiasm? Definition and explanation of the chiastic structure.
List of some in the bible: CHIASTIC STRUCTURING
and follow the links
An example of a forced chiasm (picking only the verses to make it work). Anyone can get any pattern from the bible if you can leave out a thousand times as many verses as you pick: The chiastic literary structure of the whole Bible

I did some research, too, and discovered that the tooth fairy wrote the Bible. Why it's all over the internet and even some pastors and theologians support it.

 

[zone]

I believe chiasms are God's signature.

given the fact you know this, why are forging His signature?
i know you did it.
i caught you. so do others who paid attention.
you know you did it too.

Q: ellis;
do the jews have their own covenant with G-d?

 

[1Christianwarrior316]

given the fact you know this, why are forging His signature?

Would you care to show where Ellis forged God’s name.
I have read his posts and his book The False Prophet and I don’t recall him forging God’s name.
You said he did it and you caught him so would you care to show us the proof of your accusation.

1Christianwarrior316

 

[Therapon]

given the fact you know this, why are forging His signature?

i know you did it.
i caught you. so do others who paid attention.
you know you did it too.

Q: ellis;
do the jews have their own covenant with G-d?

The real question is this: Is God a covenant keeping God?


Leviticus 26:33-45 (excerpts) “I will scatter you (Isrealites) among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you . . . and they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands . . . And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God . . . But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.”

Salvation for the Jewish people does not depend on their sanctification, but on the covenant-keeping faithfulness of God.​

Don't you see, Zone, if the Lord does not keen the promises He gave to the physical children of Israel, then we have no basis for believing the promises that God gave to the Gentile Church.

​

 

[kenisyes]

Mercy, I feel like I'm teaching hermaneutics 401, LOL. A hypothesis is only a hypothesis if it can't be proven. Chiasms are all over the Bible, I'm totally amazed that you say they are not. Here are three examples . . .


Isaiah 55:8

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.”

A: My Thoughts​

B: Are not ​

Your thoughts​

B: Neither are ​

Your ways​

A: My ways Sayeth the Lord.​

Mark 5:3-5 "Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones."

A Who had his dwelling among the tombs;
B and no man could bind him,


C no, not with chains:


C he had been bound with chains,


B neither could any man tame him.​

A And always he was in the tombs...

Acts 17:24-25 "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things."​

A God that made the world and all things therein,
B He is Lord of heaven and earth,


C Dwelleth not in temples made with hands;


C Neither is worshipped with men's hands,


B He giveth to all life, and breath,​

A And all things.

The 1st and 2nd half of Revelation are the same type of srtructures in that both are chiasmic, however the 2nd Chiaasm is a bit more complex than the first . . .


1ST Chiasm​

A ​

ch. 2-3 The Seven Churches, The Church​

B ch. 6 The Seven Seals, Christian era trials


C ch. 7:4-8 The 144,000, 12 Tribes of Israel


C ch. 7:9-14 A Great Multitude ,The Gentile Church


B ch. 8-9 The Seven Trumpets, Christian Era trials​

A ch. 11 The Two Witnesses, The Church


2ND Chiasm

A ch.12 Woman with 12 Stars, Jews during this Era​

B ch.13 Leopard, Lion, Bear Beast Satanic Kingdom


ba ch.14 144,000 & The Gospel, All the Redeemed
C ch.15 Song of Moses and Lamb, Jew & Gentile Redeemed


C ch.16 Bowls of Wrath, Wrath for the Wicked


B ch.17 Seven Headed Beast, Satanic Kingdoms


ba ch.18 Babylon, All the Lost​

A ch.20 The Thousand Years, Gentile Church Era


But if you'd rather not accept the validity of the 1st chiasm, you are even less likely to accept the validity of the 2nd. <wry smile> The proof of the repatitive bifidic (split in two halves) form of Revelation is actually found in Chs. 5 and 10.

Revelation 5:7 “And he (Jesus) came
and took the book out of the right
hand of him that sat upon the
throne.”
God the Father gives the “little
book” of Revelation to Jesus, who
then reads about the Seven seals, the
Seven Trumpets the 144 Thousand,
and the Two Witnesses.​

Revelation 10:10-11 “And I (John) took
the little book out of the angel's (Jesus’) ​

​

hand, and ate it up; And he

said unto me, thou must prophesy
again .” (Note the again!)​

Jesus gives Revelation to John who
then reads about the woman with 12
stars, the three great beasts, the Holy​

City and Babylon the Great.

So just like Daniel, Revelation is bifidic! As a result, the twelve prophecies in Revelation are parallel and concurrent, fulfilled during the Christian era! I did not ignore Chapter 8-9, the seven trumpets nor chapter 10, which is not included in the structure because it is a parenthetic.


​

My post crossed yours last night. Yours came up a second before mine, so mine showed up on a new page, so I did not see this last night. My post that crossed yours is pretty much a complete textbook package for hermeneutics 401. Now we can do HM402, seminar in chiasm in Revealation

Now to the material itself:

I do not accept any claim of structure unless it can be written out in outline format. This is what you have done here. I do not accept any claim of structure that must be searched for hunt-and peck. That is what my third link in the post that crosses yours demonstrates. A chiastic structure is determined for the whole Bible to like the 5-th embedded level by the careful selection of Scriptures. To get each new member of the selection, hundreds of verses are skipped before each new verse in chosen for the pattern. There are statistics procedures for determining non-randomness; this posted example obviously fails such a test.

I agree with you that chiastic structures are all over the Bible. You are claiming a specific one exists in Revelation, and that is the one I am questioning. You are the one who posted this. If you do not wish to teach hermeneutics 401 or 402, that is your prerogative, but then why make the post? Most of teaching is answering questions.

The chiastic structure is clear and is obvious, once presented, in Daniel, and in the various examples presented in my two first links.

First chiasm:

A ch. 2-3 The Seven Churches, The Church​

B ch. 6 The Seven Seals, Christian era trials
C ch. 7:4-8 The 144,000, 12 Tribes of Israel
C ch. 7:9-14 A Great Multitude ,The Gentile Church
B ch. 8-9 The Seven Trumpets, Christian Era trials
A ch. 11 The Two Witnesses, The Church

My first objection is the omitted chapters. True chiasms are a literary structure, hence occur in order without intervention, as your other examples show. Chiasms are like a "close up" in a movie, the camera moving in to focus on one part of a scene, but then moving back, so as not to lose context.

They are also related to the golden mean calculation as described by the Greek mathematicians: Two intermediates are inserted between two extremes, to maintain balance. The closeup is the lesson to be learned from C. Life is the context into which A intervenes. It is a three step procedure to get from life to the lesson the author wishes to convey. The balance of the golden mean requires that each step be doubled. Isaiah: God looks at us in two steps, moving toward His vision of us by thoughts, away by action. Acts: God uses three steps: everything, earth, our works. Mark: we see the tomb, focus on the chains. 3 steps: tomb, binding, chains.

Your first chiasm in Revelation does not have a common focal point: A is established by the relationship "The church", B by "Christian era trials", C by multitudes of people in either branch of the church. The parallelism is broken, because C compares Jews and gentiles, whereas A and B both are Christian only.

Your second:
A ch.12 Woman with 12 Stars, Jews during this Era
B ch.13 Leopard, Lion, Bear Beast Satanic Kingdom
ba ch.14 144,000 & The Gospel, All the Redeemed

C ch.15 Song of Moses and Lamb, Jew & Gentile Redeemed​

C ch.16 Bowls of Wrath, Wrath for the Wicked
B ch.17 Seven Headed Beast, Satanic Kingdoms
ba ch.18 Babylon, All the Lost
A ch.20 The Thousand Years, Gentile Church Era

C is the contrast between saved and wicked. That defines the intended focal point. B is the satanic kingdom, this does not reflect the contrast required for C. ba would have that contrast, but that is not what you have labelled. A contrasts Jews and gentiles, but requires changing the usual interpretation of the thousand year reign to one concurrent with ch. 12, and that is what a footnote in the pdf file hints at (p. 11). This is how you draw the conclusion that the thousand year reign is not a separate event. This conclusion contrasts the common Jewish understanding, that the thousand year reign is the sabbath millenium of the Lord after 6 millenia of gentile rule, based on the end-days understanding "I will open your graves...you shall live on the land and own it." (Ezek. 37) which you must thus interpret symbolically only. [The symbolic interpretation alone is not valid, since the bones of the preceding verses are not in graves.]

You could re-label as A ba B CC B ba A, and salvage the common focal point. If the focal point is the comparison between lost and saved, you still have to account for why the pair of entries B and ba in one case contain two entries for the lost, and in the other, one entry for the lost and one for the saved. In every case, I see intervening verses that cause me to question whether the selected titles are the best for the passage, like I see no Jews in ch. 12. Ch. 14:14-20 appear to be intervening verses, not part of the subject as stated in the outline.

The structure is thus not inherent as the organizing framework. Once that is no longer true, what remains of your hypothesis is that the second part of Revelation deals with the contrast between the fate of the saved and of the sinners, and that is nothing everydone doesn't know already.

Your hypothesis is that two part chiastic structure in Daniel (correct), plus chiastic structure in the second part of Revelation (forced) proves chiastic structure in the first half of revelation (not true), and is supported by the double occurrence of the "little book". All we really have is a literary arrangement where many elements are repeated. We could just as well analyze this as the examiniation of the prophecies in the book first in the heavens, then on the earth. If we accept that, then first the letters to the churches are earth as it now is, the prophecies of what will be are in the book, and ch. 21-22 become an apt conclusion, as the New Earth comes from the New heaven. Everything is in chronological order, not chiastic.

 

[kenisyes]

I did some research, too, and discovered that the tooth fairy wrote the Bible. Why it's all over the internet and even some pastors and theologians support it.

I realize our posts are crossing, but sarcasm is veiled hostility. I wish the tooth fairy had written the Bible, I would not need to go to the dentist.

You might check out my research. Most of it is a textbook for chiastic structure in the Bible.

 

[zone]

Don't you see, Zone, if the Lord does not keen the promises He gave to the physical children of Israel, then we have no basis for believing the promises that God gave to the Gentile Church.

the Lord did keep His promises.
all of them.

gentile church?
what's that?

ellis do you read and write Hebrew and Aramaic?
if you already answered this, my apologies.

while researching your work i used some software which allowed me to see that either:

1) you are skilled and fluent in those languages

or

2) someone wrote it for you.

no need to answer. i know you had "help"
Dispensationalism is gift from Talmudic Rabbis.

you, dear friend, are on record saying jews are already in covenant with God, outside what Christ has done.

this is everywhere in the church today.

Dual Covenant. dreadful error, i would suggest you repent.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[zone]

Don't you see, Zone, if the Lord does not keen the promises He gave to the physical children of Israel, then we have no basis for believing the promises that God gave to the Gentile Church.

who are the physical children of Israel today, ellis?

Sephardi?
Ashkenazim?
Ethiopian?
Chinese?

just any Israeli or person who identifies as jewish?
what promise is it you are helping them fight for?

soil in old Jerusalem?
all that hatred, murder and racism?
millions being bombed and enslaved....because they paid Scofield to write footnotes into a Bible that is a lie.

what has that to do with JESUS?

please explain.

 

[Digital_Angel_316]

What about EILEEN NEELIE? ... I think that is zone's real name ...

 

[Digital_Angel_316]

One Proposed Chiastic Structure to the book of Revelation ...

Chiasm was used as a literary device in the ancient world, in Babylonia,
Israel, Greece, and Rome. It fell out of use, however, and in modern times
the existence of chiasms in ancient literature was only recognized by a few
scholars in the 18th and 19th centuries. This changed in the middle of the
twentieth century, when Nils Wilhelm Lund wrote Chiasmus in the New
Testament. “Since these seminal studies the study of New Testament
chiasm has blossomed, until today recognition of chiastic structure is
common in full-scale commentaries and other scholarly works. The study of
Old Testament chiasms has likewise begun to come of age.”
​

The above quote is from Chiasmus - Conservapedia.


A proposed chiasm of Genesis and Revelation:

Lights created, Gen. 1:15
......the river in Eden, Gen. 2:9
.........gold, precious stones, Gen. 2:12
............Adam given a wife, Gen. 2:22
...............the serpent, Gen. 3:13
..................God clothes the man and the woman, Gen. 3:20
........................A city is built, Gen. 4:17
............................the flood, Genesis 7-8
............................the serpent's flood, Rev. 12:15-16
........................Babylon destroyed, Rev. 18:21
..................the bride clothed, Rev. 19:7
...............the serpent bound, Rev. 20:2
............Christ's bride, Rev. 21:9
........the city is pure gold, adorned with precious stones, Rev. 21:18
......the river of life, Rev. 22:1
God is the light, Rev. 22:5

All of this is very nice and fun of course. The question for me,
coming in late, and apparently on the wings of previous threads / conversations is ...

* what is the premise, proposal or hypothesis here?

* Are we addressing a notion that the book of Daniel has unity because it reveals a chiasm?

* Secondarily is there an attempt to infer that Daniel's chiasm ties to Revelation?

* Thirdly, is there an attempt to interpret Daniel from said chiasm to a gap-theory or other eschatological proposal?
​

Please review, it's all good so far.

PS, I got past the Hermeneutics 401, thanks for mentioning it ...

 

[kenisyes]

Digital Angel, I really like this model. Every verse is accounted for, and even more importantly, the sizes of the corresponding passages match pretty closely.

So I see Revelation as a focus on the defeat of Satan. The successive layers are woman, dragon, woman (the eternal battle between the serpent and the woman), beasts/witnesses (the expression of the church or hell), the saved, the destructions, messages. The story it tells is the story of the world created, hearing from God, turning from God for destruction, those who are saved through Jesus, the battle between heaven and hell, the battle between Eve and the serpent, defeat of Satan. I think you are really close to a complete explanation of the order of the topics.

I almost wonder that, if the legends of the pre-flood people had not been destroyed, if the balance of the verses could not be filled in, in the chiasmus of Genesis - Revelation. Like maybe the seven bowls are each to deal with one of the seven descendants of Cain? That kind of thing. If it could be done, that would show that all of Revelation is designed by Genesis pre-history.

Your Daniel makes better sense as well. The Aramaic for the history, the Hebrew for the prophecy derived from it. It makes the title make sense (Daniel - God judges.)

I also like the fact that your system proves nothing about time-line. I have always felt there is none to this. It puts the thousand year reign opposite the 930 years of Adam (failing 1000 years by one life-span of 70), which is a concern in another thread I am discussing in. The seven thousand years total, puts the millennium culminating with Jesus (800BC-200AD), right where that belongs also, covering Hebrew history.

Who is "our" in your first line?

 

[Digital_Angel_316]

Digital Angel, I really like this model. Every verse is accounted for, and even more importantly, the sizes of the corresponding passages match pretty closely.

...
...
...

Who is "our" in your first line?

Our == ONE I think it says ...

Thanks for the feedback ... still not sure what we are saying about or inferring from Daniel here tho, can someone review the concept or restate the opening post ...

 

[kenisyes]

Our == ONE I think it says ...

Thanks for the feedback ... still not sure what we are saying about or inferring from Daniel here tho, can someone review the concept or restate the opening post ...

I must be going blind. Too much CC threads?

 

[Therapon]

Your hypothesis is that two part chiastic structure in Daniel (correct), plus chiastic structure in the second part of Revelation (forced) proves chiastic structure in the first half of revelation (not true), and is supported by the double occurrence of the "little book". All we really have is a literary arrangement where many elements are repeated. We could just as well analyze this as the examiniation of the prophecies in the book first in the heavens, then on the earth. If we accept that, then first the letters to the churches are earth as it now is, the prophecies of what will be are in the book, and ch. 21-22 become an apt conclusion, as the New Earth comes from the New heaven. Everything is in chronological order, not chiastic.

liberal scholars do not look at the Bible with the possibility that it might be right, instead, they make every attempt to prove it wrong. You are doing the same.

In Revelation 4:1 we read, "come up here." In Revelation 11:13 we read "come up here." So either there are two raptures, or more logically, those are two narrations of the same event.

In Revelation 12:12 we read that Satan was cast to the Earth "for a short time." in Revelation 20:3 we read that Satan was, "loosed for a little season." so Satan is either loosed twice, or more logically, those are two narrations of the same event.

Revelation 2-3 is about the churches. The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are the two churches of the Christian era. Both the seals and the trumpets began to be fulfilled at the beginning of this era.Revelation is bursting at the seams with other dual narrations that are obviously about the same events.

Are the above statements true? Of course they are true, but I am not going to debate them because spiritual truths are spiritually discerned and it is impossible to prove truths to someone who doesn’t want to believe them.

 

[zone]

What about EILEEN NEELIE? ... I think that is zone's real name ...

who or what is EILEEN NEELIE, DA
it or she might be me. but i wont know til you tell me.