What Do I Do With This Verse?

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May 15, 2013
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#61
God compared the ones that are weak in faith as to human understanding and which a woman is the weaker vessel; and which Paul was referring in spiritual context to those that are weak in faith that they should remain as students until their faith has increase enough so that they can teach.

Matthew 15:14
Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”
 
S

Sanashankar

Guest
#62
None of these answers really helped me at all with my question...

In the first verse of Timoty 2 we are told to pray and give thanks for all men; for kings, and for "...ALL THAT ARE IN AUTHORITY..." Then we pick up this thought again in verse eight where Paul admonishes: "I will therefore that MEN PRAY EVERYWHERE, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting." Next notice how verse 9 is then a continuation of this same though of making supplication and prayers for "all that are in authority," by stating "In LIKE MANNER also, that women....." So in the same manner as MEN are to recognize and give thanks for "all men, for kings, and for ALL IN AUTHORITY," women "IN LIKE MANNER," are to do certain things which pertain to women--"adorn themselves modestly, learn in silence, not to USURP AUTHORITY over the man..." So all men are to recognize and be subject to kings and all authority and "in like manner" the women are to be in subject to the authorities over them. Paul then shows that Adam was not deceived in the Garden by the women under his authority, she WAS deceived, and "was in the transgression."
So Eve did not respect properly the authority of her husband, and was in the transgression, just like women who do not respect the authority over them (their own husbands, fathers, and ministers of the gospel), are in transgression also. However, or as Paul says, "Not withstand, she [women] shall be saved [notice they are not saved "by" something other than Jesus, but rather..]...shall be saved IN childbearing..." But what does that mean? They will be saved if they have BABIES? No, certainly not, for many women who "have babies"-partake of "childbearing," are not subject to authority and are likewise then continually "in the transgression." No, what this is saying is that women will be saved in the ROLE OF MOTHERHOOD [childbearing] rather than by taking on a role of usurping authority over them. Strong defines this Greek word as "maternity, parentage, and THE PERFORMANCE OF MATERNAL DUTIES." There it is. A woman will be saved if she like men accept the authority over them, and perform their god-given role in [not by] MOTHERHOOD.

Hope this helps you
 
S

Sanashankar

Guest
#63
1 Timothy 2:11-15 "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For Adam was formed first, then Eve. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control."

What?! I don't understand! I am not a quiet person and I will not be shut down just because of a man. I do not care who he is in my life! This has made me angry and I do not know what to do! This is scripture, so how can it be wrong? If it is not wrong then it is has to be right. So what does that mean for me? Am I just misunderstanding it? Adam was deceived also... He ate the fruit to... He let Eve talk him into doing the very thing GOD told him not to do. He was there when the serpent deceived his wife and he did nothing... He did not lead her, but, instead, let her lead him. So I have to have a child and my salvation depends on who they grow up to be? If that's true then I'm screwed. I do not want children because I lack that motherly quality that is the key ingredient to the whole parenting thing: I. AM. NOT. GOOD. WITH KIDS!!! Silence?! SILENCE???!!! Not possible. I am living with a couple who live exactly as that scripture says and I can't do that. The husband talks down to his wife for, goodness sake!!! She is not his equal, she's his child! If he says no then the answer is no... I don't think so. I am a believer in the husband leading his wife, but they also need to be partners. The wife needs a say so. Women can be easily lead astray because they lack the kind of strength that men kept with him when GOD took the Eve out of Adam. A woman needs a man over her and I have seen what it looks like when a woman is the head of a church and no man puts a stop to any of her ideas. It's ugly because it is not GOD's way. I get that, but that should not belittle her strength. I honestly do not know what to do... If this is what is meant to come out of marriage then I will avoid that vow like the plague! I am not Eve. I cannot be held in contempt because of her mistake. That would contradict the whole being reborn in Christ and being washed by His blood. I could cry! What is GOD's way here?
For more info about the role of women in the bible you can read this

Esther - The Destiny of Women . . . . . . . Mobile Conference 2005
 
C

Cino

Guest
#64
A Christian woman should have a humble spirit. That doesn't mean we cannot have our own opinion, but it means we should be meek and humble. The Bible states that the husband is the head of the wife, and women should be in subjection to their husbands. That doesn't mean he gets to make all the decisions or control you or abuse you. It means a woman should look at her husband with respect. It does say, in Corinthians however, that a woman should be silent in the church and not usurp authority over the man. It is not proper for women to preach in the church according to Corinthians. It also says that if a woman has any questions regarding what is going on in the church, let her ask her husband at home. Many women today, with women's rights and women's lib, just will not humble themselves and be obedient to the word of God in this manner.
 

Noel139

Senior Member
Jul 1, 2013
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#65
I have said this so many times I am getting tired of it. People take an English translation and read into the text what is NOT there in the original language. They forget the context and rip verses out of their setting and who the book was written to!

Paul wrote the epistles to the various churches he founded and had pastored. In Corinthians, example, he writes to the church in Corinth. He addresses addresses various issues, including the sins of certain men.

"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife." 1 Cor. 5:1.

In 1 Timothy he also addresses specific sins to two men.

"Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme." 1 Tim. 1:20

"Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done." 1 Tim. 4:14

In fact, I have heard it said that there was a woman in Ephesus who was causing great harm in the church, but Paul did not name her, because he hoped to have her restored to the fellowship. What is extremely important about this verse, is that it does not apply to ALL women!! It is about A woman who is causing problems in the church.

"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet." 1Tim 2:11-12

It does not say SOME women or ALL women, but is addressed to A (singular) woman who was causing problems, probably a former priestess of Artemis. The pronoun SHE in the latter part of the verse is also singular because that is the tense of the verb. If Paul was wanting to address all women, for all time, he would have used the plural from of the verb and made it a continuing tense.

The first verb in Greek which then applies to following verses in this passage is LEARN. This is μανθανέτω, or manthaneto*. Because the third person pronoun is contained within the verb in Greek, I will examine this verb and the parsing is as follows:

PRESENT - That means it has to happen, NOW, - not the future or the past
IMPERATIVE - a woman is commanded to do this
ACTIVE - Means that the person must do it- it is not done to her
3 PERSON - he, she, it (in the singular) they (plural)
SINGULAR - ONE person only!!

Therefore the GREEK is very clear in saying that it is something that this woman is commanded to do NOW!! It is not forever, it is not continuing (Imperfect), it is not past or future. We do not have this verb tense in English, and properly it should be translated "LET HER".

ONE WOMAN, ONE PERSON - time is right now - in Ephesus in the 1st century AD.

I do hope some of you will take the time to read this. As I have said in so many places - (and NOT just about women), without a knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, you are depending on the personal bias of the translator. Although in this case, it is a pretty good translation. Single, present, and oh yes. Paul is personally commanding it to this woman, which also means it is a personal command, addressed to a single person, in a specific church -Ephesus! When we read the personal letters of Paul, which 1 & 2 Timothy both are, the hermeneutics is that he is talking directly to Timothy, the young pastor, about how to deal with specific situations - men who are bad and a woman who needs to be corrected!

As far as the word "authority" which has been a constant debate in this forum, and used by men to suppress women, mock them and put them down, we need to look in depth at the word!

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12 ESV

The word AUTHORITY here is a hapax legomena. That means it appears only ONCE in the whole Bible. It is not the usual word in the New Testament for authority, which is exousia.

Instead, we have a word which cannot be translated in terms of the way it is in other Bible verses, but translators have to turn to other contemporaneous sources to find out what the word means.

The word is authentein, (αύθεμτείν) in Greek. According to Rogers Jr and Rogers III, it means anything from "to act on one's own authority, to exercise authority, to murder, to domineer, to be an autocrat."* So ALL of these terms suggest that a woman is not to be without God's authority, nor dominate or be an autocrat over a man.

Contextually, this is very important, because Timothy was the pastor in Ephesus, which was the home of the goddess Artemis or Diana. The temple of Artemis was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, and Paul had already had run-ins with their silversmiths, who resented that Paul was pulling people away from worship of Artemis and not needing their idols. (See Acts 19)

Now the big thing about these worshipers of Artemis, was that the temple was run by wild priestesses. They wore their hair long and unruly and they did some nasty things to men in the name of their idol.

So imagine if some of them get saved, or pretend to be saved, and came into a church, and start domineering and doing all kinds of cultic things. Well, I agree these women should not be in control. They should not be exercising authority over anyone. They need to unlearn a LOT of things!

So Paul was right to tell Timothy in a private letter, to kindly keep these women under control in Ephesus. Does this one verse apply to ALL women for ALL time? Well, I think it is best that neither men nor women dominate. So in that sense, it is universal. But because Paul picked this word - the ONLY time he used it in all his letters, he was not talking about any kind of authority given by God. That would be exousia.

As far as the word translated "silent" in the KJV and other versions, ESV has it right, according to Danker **, the word ἡσυχίᾳ, should be translated as "quiet, well-ordered." That does not mean being absolutely silent. It means speaking at the right time.

Finally, it should be remembered that in that culture, women were not educated, and were little more than slaves or property. When they became Christians, they became equal with men (Gal 3:28) and they were joint heirs with Christ. BUT, they were not educated, and learning was essential. Most of the women could not read or write, and thus it was important for them to be instructed by men who were educated. Thank God, we are now educated, and we are able to understand, study and read the Bible for ourselves.

So, yes, you can teach. Now the men may not listen, because they do not understand the context or the Greek. They may threaten us, call us names, but God will deal with them in his time, for their discouragement and for trying to hold back the calling of God.

*The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament, Cleon Rogers Jr, and Cleon Rogers III, Zondervan Publishing House, 1998.

**A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature: Frederick William Danker based on Walter Dauer's German version. The University of Chicago Press, 2000.
That is all very fascinating! I read it all because I am eager to learn. Everybody is assuming that I am in rebellion, but I cannot help the way that I was made. I do not want to be wrong, but I can't even fathom being silent. I would be miserable! I do do not think that is what GOD wants. I have to follow what is in MY spirit and that lies in your reasoning. But I will never push aside the truth about a mans dominance over his wife because he provides a spiritual covering.
 
C

Cino

Guest
#66
Well, God does not change. God is the same yesterday, today and forever, so therefore his Word, The Bible, does not change. It seems we all try to change God's word to suit us to today. We say it only pertains to one person, it doesn't pertain to us today as that was for way back then, etc. You are wrong. God's word is the same today as it was yesterday. You can talk your way out of it thinking it is only for one person, or only for a certain era, but that is not so. God talks to ALL women when he talks about women in the Bible... not just one person, sorry.
 
C

Cino

Guest
#67
As for the Greek language to understand the Bible, Jesus said that even a "fool" can understand the Bible and obtain salvation. I think there is too much emphasis being put on the fact that one has to read the Bible in Greek or Hebrew. I do understand, from my son studying those languages, that certain words DO mean different things. For example, there are several different words in Greek for killing, and they all mean something different, where in English, we just say the one word "killing". When we analyse the word "killing", we can then dissect it down to murder, manslaughter, etc. I think you only need to look into the other languages if you want to find out the meaning of a certain word. God has given us the Bible in each of our own languages to understand enough how to live pleasing to Him, what he expects of us as Christians and how to find salvation. That's it. And if Jesus said even a "fool" can understand, then don't worry about the language scholars. God gives wisdom to the fools of this world, and the wise of this world, do not know as much about God as the humble ones.