What do you believe 'hell' actually is?

[LaylieCalmMind]

Rejecting my question isn't answering it. Let me show you.

Muslims believe we worship the same god, so I don't really see why Allah would have any problem with me converting people to Christianity, by their own standards. Your question is nonsense.

This is completely false, over a billion Muslims vehemently disagree with you on this. Not that Allah and Yahweh are technically the same god, but in that you being a Christian doesn't damn you to hell. I assure you, according to an entire, massively supported religion, you're going to hell and leading others to it with you. Does this mean you're doing anything wrong? NO! You're completely innocent! The same logic applies to me.

You've presented an absolute falsehood as a rebuttal to my entire argument, without even addressing all of it, and you pretend as if the argument means nothing. As for rejecting your question, what if I were to ask you "Why did you assassinate John F. Kennedy?" and you replied that you did not do that, and I told you that you were avoiding the question... Your question relies upon assumptions that I've explained are extremely flawed.

However, I do understand what you were TRYING to say, and I still disagree. God is not evil because consequences exist. Again, He gives you the option to see the Truth, acknowledge Him and live accordingly. You choose to reject Him.

Right now while we are living, we have options. In the end, there are no more options. You made your choice. If you choose live your life without God, you'll spend the rest of eternity without Him. If you choose to live your life with Him, you'll spend the rest of eternity with Him. There are no takebacks. If you hate God and think He is evil, then you should be fine with this arrangement. lol

Many have said in this thread that we shouldn't be so focused on Hell. On that, I certainly agree. Faith by fear, in my opinion, is not the right kind of faith. Hell is not something I fear and it's not something I concern myself with because I am saved. I am a Christian because I love God, not because I'm scared of the devil or something. I remember being your age and thinking some of these same thoughts, so I'm sorry if I'm impatient with you. I hope you wake up soon because I know how hard it is once you finally do. Actively attempting to turn people away because God isn't living up to YOUR standards is a hard thing to accept forgiveness for once you know the truth. However, He gives it. His mercy is truly awesome.

I've already, at multiple points in this thread, dispelled every flawed rationalization that nonbelievers "choose" to go to hell, or that god has to torture us, or that consequences have to be eternal torture because we couldn't possibly have any other (less cruel and excessive) punishment, or that nonbelievers "deserve" it. If you've actually read those, feel free to respond to them and let me know directly why my points are wrong. If you're just going to disagree and not reason about it, that's fine too. I remember being at a younger age than I am now, and thinking the thoughts that you are using to justify hell, and no matter how much I told myself they were right, I could never convince myself that torture was acceptable. And saying that you are not afraid of hell because you are saved, therefore your faith is not based on fear is flawed. What if you weren't saved? Then you would fear, yes? The fear would motivate you to become saved. Whether or not you are actually motivated by fear (I'm not claiming you absolutely are) you can't dispel that there IS a huge fear based motivation to become saved.

 

[timothy10]

Amen rainacorn on everything you have said

 

[rainacorn]

I've already, at multiple points in this thread, dispelled every flawed rationalization that nonbelievers "choose" to go to hell, or that god has to torture us, or that consequences have to be eternal torture because we couldn't possibly have any other (less cruel and excessive) punishment, or that nonbelievers "deserve" it. If you've actually read those, feel free to respond to them and let me know directly why my points are wrong. If you're just going to disagree and not reason about it, that's fine too. I remember being at a younger age than I am now, and thinking the thoughts that you are using to justify hell, and no matter how much I told myself they were right, I could never convince myself that torture was acceptable. And saying that you are not afraid of hell because you are saved, therefore your faith is not based on fear is flawed. What if you weren't saved? Then you would fear, yes? The fear would motivate you to become saved. Whether or not you are actually motivated by fear (I'm not claiming you absolutely are) you can't dispel that there IS a huge fear based motivation to become saved.

Why would anyone ever be afraid of something they don't believe in?

Part of being an atheist is a complete rejection of the spiritual realm. That includes evil, angels, Hell, the devil, God, Jesus...the whole thing. Nothing to be afraid of and nothing to look forward to.

I don't think hell is torture by your definition. I think it is torture because it is separation from God after knowing the truth. Right now you don't know the truth, so being separated from God is no big deal to you.

I think I've responded more than adequately to your arguments. You've made it clear that this isn't really up for discussion so at this point I will walk away. Consider it a victory if you'd like.

 

[LaylieCalmMind]

Why would anyone ever be afraid of something they don't believe in?

Part of being an atheist is a complete rejection of the spiritual realm. That includes evil, angels, Hell, the devil, God, Jesus...the whole thing. Nothing to be afraid of and nothing to look forward to.

I don't think hell is torture by your definition. I think it is torture because it is separation from God after knowing the truth. Right now you don't know the truth, so being separated from God is no big deal to you.

I think I've responded more than adequately to your arguments. You've made it clear that this isn't really up for discussion so at this point I will walk away. Consider it a victory if you'd like.

Children are raised to fear hell and believe in it the moment they can comprehend what it is. Then people who might have questioned their beliefs or examined them critically without bias are too afraid to do so because of this fear of hell. Then there could be someone who is unsure of whether or not it is true, and be motivated by fear to accept it just in case it is true. You're right that you and I don't fear it though, you're sure you're saved and I'm sure that hell doesn't exist, but we're not everyone...

I think any judge of logical quality or debate would also consider it a victory. You've stated what you call truth but failed to give anyone a reason as to how they can know it is truth. You haven't begun to respond to any of my arguments, your rebuttal to one of them was simply stating that Islam doesn't claim you're going to hell, which is a blatant falsehood, and it didn't even touch on the logic that you would be innocent, not responsible for any people you'd converted to Christianity instead of Islam. Is this your idea of an adequate response? Through all of this you've been condescending, impatient, and accused me of avoiding you whereas the complete opposite was the truth. I will admit, it has caused me to word myself in a less than gentle manner in this very post :\

 

[rainacorn]

Through all of this you've been condescending, impatient, and accused me of avoiding you whereas the complete opposite was the truth. I will admit, it has caused me to word myself in a less than gentle manner in this very post :\

No one can control you, Laylie. You make your own decisions and responsible for your own actions- not just where you spend eternity, but also how you speak to people.

Same goes for me, which is why I apologized for being impatient with you.

We're too similar to continue speaking. You are me 10 years ago lol

You're just at the beginning of this journey Laylie. Good luck to you.

 

[WordGaurdian]

To answer your question what hell is:

It is the ONE PLACE you NEVER want to go to.

 

[dmdave17]

Really don't want to start an argument about it, what I want is to see the community opinion on this issue. Since there are so many different ways to interpret, and so many people who do differently interpret the Bible, there will always be variations, I'd just like to get a handle on it. I personally know different people who believe in every option up there, I just don't know which interpretations are most prominent.

Well, let's see. How about "the lake of fire"; the "blazing furnace, where there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth"?

 

[LaylieCalmMind]

No one can control you, Laylie. You make your own decisions and responsible for your own actions- not just where you spend eternity, but also how you speak to people.

Same goes for me, which is why I apologized for being impatient with you.

We're too similar to continue speaking. You are me 10 years ago lol

You're just at the beginning of this journey Laylie. Good luck to you.

My opinion is that we're nothing alike, and that is not an insult to you, I'm only expressing that I do not see the similarities. Also, it's somewhat unsavory to enter a discussion, be unable to back up a word contributed, and then walk away giving off the message that you used to be just like the person you're speaking to (implying you're older and wiser.) I expect people to be able to reason what they say, and not ignore refutations, telling me I'm at the beginning of my journey (implying I'm just too young) won't suffice.

 

[See_KING_Truth]

This thread has been going nowhere from the start. LaylieCalmMind, you don't want to get a 'handle' on anything. Nor do you care to see which interpretations are most prominent. You just want to refute all arguments from the standpoint of a nonbeliever. You don't care what anybody believes or what God has to say, it is obvious by your posts in this thread, you aren't fooling anybody.

 

[LaylieCalmMind]

This thread has been going nowhere from the start. LaylieCalmMind, you don't want to get a 'handle' on anything. Nor do you care to see which interpretations are most prominent. You just want to refute all arguments from the standpoint of a nonbeliever. You don't care what anybody believes or what God has to say, it is obvious by your posts in this thread, you aren't fooling anybody.

I wanted to get a handle on it, and I received just that. And then I found myself wanting more, I admit, having a discussion was not my original intention, but it did become so afterwards. But I don't understand what I'm doing that's so wrong here, we've had an (often passionate) exchange of ideas. Some people enjoy these exchanges, some people find them meaningful. That being said, I suppose I do want to refute any argument that claims humans are deserving of endless pain, as I have an opposing stance on that issue that I feel strongly about. This is a free, public platform of expression, the sole purpose of which is for us to communicate. I don't feel as though I've done anything inappropriate. And lastly, there are many people who would argue against hell from the standpoint of a believer, we've had them in this thread already.

 

[See_KING_Truth]

We can all argue untill we are blue in the face, what has this accomplished? Nothing really. Fear is not what causes people to be saved, it is ultimately the unconditional love that is found in God. I do admit that there are Christians, spread abroad, who are not walking in love the way Christ commanded us to, they will face judgement one day. This is a huge turn off for most unbelievers, if not, all of them. While we are supposed to speak out against all unrighteousness, this often times gets out of hand or out of context...out of love. All I can do is agree to disagree with you on your beliefs and love you just as I would any fellow believer, or even my enemies for that sake. I have found it difficult trying to convert/evangelise most agnostics or athiests by quoting scripture. It is very difficult to use something that people deny as truth to bring them to the truth... We must become the word, let it be manifested through us. We must show them the love of God, not judging or condemning the person regardless of what they believe, because all in all that is how Jesus would have it.

 

[Ramon]

We can all argue untill we are blue in the face, what has this accomplished? Nothing really. Fear is not what causes people to be saved, it is ultimately the unconditional love that is found in God. I do admit that there are Christians, spread abroad, who are not walking in love the way Christ commanded us to, they will face judgement one day. This is a huge turn off for most unbelievers, if not, all of them. While we are supposed to speak out against all unrighteousness, this often times gets out of hand or out of context...out of love. All I can do is agree to disagree with you on your beliefs and love you just as I would any fellow believer, or even my enemies for that sake. I have found it difficult trying to convert/evangelise most agnostics or athiests by quoting scripture. It is very difficult to use something that people deny as truth to bring them to the truth... We must become the word, let it be manifested through us. We must show them the love of God, not judging or condemning the person regardless of what they believe, because all in all that is how Jesus would have it.

Amen!! May Jesus bless you.

 

[resurrection33]

Really don't want to start an argument about it, what I want is to see the community opinion on this issue. Since there are so many different ways to interpret, and so many people who do differently interpret the Bible, there will always be variations, I'd just like to get a handle on it. I personally know different people who believe in every option up there, I just don't know which interpretations are most prominent.

Thanks for sharing!

I believe hell is what happens to us each time we sin.

 

[Laodicea]

Of course, but you can't define what Greek words mean by using a Hebrew word. It's really bad hermeneutics.

So do you only use the NT to explain the NT and the OT to explain the OT?

 

[Crypto]

So do you only use the NT to explain the NT and the OT to explain the OT?

No it has nothing to do with explaining anything or doctrine persay, it's about using the original languages correctly for interpretive purposes.

 

[Laodicea]

No it has nothing to do with explaining anything or doctrine persay, it's about using the original languages correctly for interpretive purposes.

Since your answer is no then why dont you believe the OT verses instead of giving an excuse for not believing them? And if you to get technical then what language did Jesus speak in the verses you quoted from the NT? If it was not Greek then we should find out what language it was to get the correct meaning?

On the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 when the disciples spoke in other languages they spoke what was written in Hebrew in other languages but if they were to get technical like you there would not have been 3000 baptized in one day. Either you believe the whole Bible explains itself or you don't. God was able from one language to make many He is also able to make many into one as in Acts 2. Brother dont get so technical as to miss the whole point of the word of God

God Bless

 

[Crypto]

Since your answer is no then why dont you believe the OT verses instead of giving an excuse for not believing them? And if you to get technical then what language did Jesus speak in the verses you quoted from the NT? If it was not Greek then we should find out what language it was to get the correct meaning?

On the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 when the disciples spoke in other languages they spoke what was written in Hebrew in other languages but if they were to get technical like you there would not have been 3000 baptized in one day. Either you believe the whole Bible explains itself or you don't. God was able from one language to make many He is also able to make many into one as in Acts 2. Brother dont get so technical as to miss the whole point of the word of God

God Bless

It has nothing to do with being technical, it's a common error to define Greek terms by Hebrew usage, like the argument where people try to define what the word 'day' in Genesis 1 means by 2 Peter3:8, saying it means a thousand years. It's a dangerous practice to those who aren't sound in interpretation. The Bible does explain itself, but it takes a bit of work to understand. Which is why sound principles of interpretation are necessary when dealing with these issues.

Quoting from the OT prophets to try to prove a NT doctrine is probably not the most sound hermeneutical way to prove any sort of argument. Especially when the NT is CLEAR that hell is a place of eternal torment not a place where people come and are annihilated as some teach.

2 Thess1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,..

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46).

Eternal is forever, everlasting is lasting forever.

But if you want to get technical let's look at the Greek...

The phrase "forever and ever" is used of describing God's eternal glory and the length of eternal damnation. The exact same Greek phrase is used in each of the verses below....

forever and ever--aionas ton aionon "ages of the ages"

"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).
". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:13).

"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever" (Rev. 19:3).

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).

The Grk phrase "aionas ton aionon", which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek NT. In 17, it means "without end, extending into infinity." In Rev. 19:3, it is used to describe the destruction of the whore of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends 'forever and ever'.

Let's look at Rev.14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

The Greek in Rev.14:11 is only slightly different. Above "forever and ever" is translated from the Greek, aionas ton aionon, which is literally "ages of the of ages." In Rev. 14:11, the Greek is 'aionas aionon' which is literally, "ages of ages." Therefore, the scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end. So eternal torment, "hell" is eternal, not a temporary place where someone goes or a place where someone goes and is burned up like the annihilationists teach.

 

[trust_in_the_name]

11 Come, you children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the Lord. (Psalm 34:11)

5 Then you will understand the fear of the Lord, And find the knowledge of God. (Proverbs 2:5)

9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. (Psalm 19:9)

10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praise endures forever. (Psalm 111:10)

7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction. (Proverbs 1:7)

13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate. (Proverbs 8:13)

27 The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, To turn one away from the snares of death. (Proverbs 14:27)

6 In mercy and truth Atonement is provided for iniquity; And by the fear of the Lord one departs from evil. (Proverbs 16:6)

23 The fear of the Lord leads to life, And he who has it will abide in satisfaction; He will not be visited with evil. (Proverbs 19:23)

28 And to man He said, 'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom, And to depart from evil is understanding.' " (Job 28:28)

28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

15 Therefore I am terrified at His presence; When I consider this, I am afraid of Him. (Job 23:15)

 

[AnandaHya]

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction. (Proverbs 1:7)

 

[jimmydiggs]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSZeNK0TA80[/video]