What does Paul mean by “women will be saved through childbearing”?

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OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
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#41
Why did Paul say women will be saved through childbearing?

1 Timothy 2:15

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love and holiness with sobriety.
It means God will save us from dying while giving birth to our children.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#42
Sure I can see Eve mentioned in the previous verse, but how do you resolve the problematic syntax for an association that I mentioned?

And I agree with the unfortunate part. Perhaps GOD intended for the clumsy syntax to preempt the conclusion that that verse refers to either Eve or Mary.
genitive case shows the childbearing is associated with the 'she' right?
i think, he's writing both about women in general, and about Eve in particular as a typological case of all women - Eve's salvation comes through the promise of a child, and that's being put forth as an example to teach about a similar 'rescuing' or 'redemption' of womankind both as individuals and as an whole. it makes sense to me that that 'preserving' has a relationship to what he's just said about Eve, the contrast of being formed after Adam and having been subject to deception in a way he had not been, and a relationship with what he's just said pragmatically ((?)) & logistically about women as a general group. in that sense, it's definitely not talking about Eve or Mary - the overall context is woman as a gender group.


not that i mean to say i have this all sorted out at all. it's a complicated set of statements being made, for sure.
do you think, the 'she' is referring to womankind in general?
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#43
Why did Paul say women will be saved through childbearing?

1 Timothy 2:15

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love and holiness with sobriety.
Childbearing is a metonymy for the role of motherhood. Living in obedience to the calling that is particular to them is the expression of their faith. Dead faith can not save. Not because works somehow earns God's declaration of righteousness but because works are what accompany the faith that justifies. No works of obedience ultimately means no justification by faith in Jesus is on record in heaven for that person.

"8But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."-1 Timothy 1:8
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#44
not that i mean to say i have this all sorted out at all. it's a complicated set of statements being made, for sure.
do you think, the 'she' is referring to womankind in general?
I don't think it's complicated at all. IMO Paul used clumsy grammar. We all do it from time to time. For example using the word they when referring to a singular person who is either male or female - "If that person comes here then they will see what I'm talking about". In this case we have no choice but to use clumsy grammar due to a limitation of the English language.

Yes, I think she refers to all women alive in Paul's time and thereafter.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#45
Childbearing is a metonymy for the role of motherhood. Living in obedience to the calling that is particular to them is the expression of their faith. Dead faith can not save. Not because works somehow earns God's declaration of righteousness but because works are what accompany the faith that justifies. No works of obedience ultimately means no justification by faith in Jesus is on record in heaven for that person.

"8But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."-1 Timothy 1:8
So if a woman decides not to have children for whatever reason, she won't be saved? Faith without works? Is that what you're implying?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,065
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#46
I don't think it's complicated at all. IMO Paul used clumsy grammar. We all do it from time to time. For example using the word they when referring to a singular person who is either male or female - "If that person comes here then they will see what I'm talking about". In this case we have no choice but to use clumsy grammar due to a limitation of the English language.

Yes, I think she refers to all women alive in Paul's time and thereafter.
what's comes across as clumsy in English may not be so clumsy in Greek ((i wouldn't know about this case in particular)). i get what you mean by that i guess but i just wouldn't personally phrase it that way :)

-- i figure the mixing of singular & plural is because he's talking about more than one thing simultaneously, using Eve as an analogy to all women. so, even though i think 'she' refers to Eve predominately i think it also is meant to refer to all womankind.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#47
what's comes across as clumsy in English may not be so clumsy in Greek ((i wouldn't know about this case in particular)). i get what you mean by that i guess but i just wouldn't personally phrase it that way :)

-- i figure the mixing of singular & plural is because he's talking about more than one thing simultaneously, using Eve as an analogy to all women. so, even though i think 'she' refers to Eve predominately i think it also is meant to refer to all womankind.
I think he just had a brainfart
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#48
So if a woman decides not to have children for whatever reason, she won't be saved?
She will be no less saved than the thief on the cross was saved despite the fact that he did not get saved through water baptism:

"baptism that now saves you "-1 Peter 3:21


Faith without works? Is that what you're implying?
Yes, faith without works is certainly an aspect of what Paul is driving at here. The person who is not living in obedience in accordance with their particular role and calling in this life has denied the faith.

Women who don't live in faith, love, and holiness in self restraint in their role as wife, and mother (child bearer) have denied the faith. Likewise, men who do not live in the obedience of their calling for men have denied the faith. You can't do that and expect to be saved when Jesus comes back. You are in denial of the faith. You have dead faith. Jesus will reject you when he returns. It has nothing to do with those things being legalistic requirements that you fulfill to earn your salvation. It has everything to do with those things being the things that people do who have faith in God.
 
M

Miri

Guest
#50
I’ve just been reading this thread and fell around laughing, what
with brain farts and savings! Lol


But then a thought occurred to me. Ping!


1 Timothy 2:14-15 NLT
[14] And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan.
The woman was deceived, and sin was the result. [15] But women will
be saved through childbearing, assuming they continue to live
in faith, love, holiness, and modesty.


The pain in child birth was a curse wasn’t it.
But then Jesus born of a woman became a curse for us. Do you see?
The curse which happened (sin) in Eden was taken away by Jesus.
In that sense men too are saved through child bearing.


Galatians 3:13 NKJV
[13] Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having
become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who
hangs on a tree"),
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#51
Yes, faith without works is certainly an aspect of what Paul is driving at here. The person who is not living in obedience in accordance with their particular role and calling in this life has denied the faith.

Women who don't live in faith, love, and holiness in self restraint in their role as wife, and mother (child bearer) have denied the faith. Likewise, men who do not live in the obedience of their calling for men have denied the faith. You can't do that and expect to be saved when Jesus comes back. You are in denial of the faith. You have dead faith. Jesus will reject you when he returns. It has nothing to do with those things being legalistic requirements that you fulfill to earn your salvation. It has everything to do with those things being the things that people do who have faith in God.
Paul would never had said or meant such a thing. He wished that all were unmarried so that they could better serve GOD (1 Corinthians 7).
 
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#52
Not that I care what the Vulgate says, but it does show what the prevailing view was at that time. It says that "if she continues", not "if they continue".
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#53
My wife has a daughter she gave birth to so I guess that she's good to go. Looks like my mom will make it too.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#54
Paul would never had said or meant such a thing. He wished that all were unmarried so that they could better serve GOD (1 Corinthians 7).
Paul said that only some people will have the gift of singleness like he does. And he makes it clear that people are not sinning if they get married and have kids. In fact, that exactly what he tells young widows to do:

"I want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach"-1 Timothy 5:14

And we know he wants believers to get married if they can not control themselves. So we have plenty of evidence that he would in fact mean that women are saved through the obedience of faith connected with the duties and responsibilities of being a women who marries and has kids. Because faith without works is dead and can not save.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#55
My wife has a daughter she gave birth to so I guess that she's good to go. Looks like my mom will make it too.
Have they done so in love and continuing faith in holiness and self restraint? Read the passage.

Childbearing is a metonymy. A figure of speech for the God given role of women in this life through which she is to express her life in Christ in love and faith and holiness with self restraint. Women who do that have a living faith--the faith that saves.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#57
Not that I care what the Vulgate says, but it does show what the prevailing view was at that time. It says that "if she continues", not "if they continue".
I'm liking the 'continuing' part. Only those who continue to have faith will be saved when Jesus comes back.

Women who don't walk in the obedience to care for their families have denied the faith.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#58
I’m doomed i don’t have and children. Lol
I guess you and the thief on the cross will have to rot in hell together.

(He was not water baptized.)
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#59
And we know he wants believers to get married if they can not control themselves. So we have plenty of evidence that he would in fact mean that women are saved through the obedience of faith connected with the duties and responsibilities of being a women who marries and has kids. Because faith without works is dead and can not save.
You really have a knack for saying contradictory things. The fact that Paul wished all women would not have children in order to better serve the lord entirely precludes your idea that bearing children is somehow tied to salvation. Paul was a realist, though, and realized that few had his disposition, thus advising that they get married and have children in order to stay out of trouble.